5 ms·

Progressive Web Apps have the potential to be massively disruptive to apps as we know them now... and that's before the near-native speeds that WASM will bring

by mikece 8y ago

Progressive Web Apps have the potential to be massively disruptive to apps as we know them now... and that's before the near-native speeds that WASM will bring are factored into the equation. After making the mistake of going all-in on Xamarin in 2014 I realized, much to my chagrin, that the future of mobile is HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Sure, there are cases where certain features require vendor-native apps for now, for example if you want to register a service that runs in the background without the app being launched. Currently that's not possible with mobile web or hybrid but there's no reason the mobile OS cannot look for and hook JavaScript -- or WASM -- code and run it as part of a background service. Could be as simple as specifying in the app manifest one or more code files which contain logic for background processes along with instructions like "run this only when the app is active, run it all the time, or run it on this cron schedule." A completely different question is whether vendors like Apple will refuse to support something like this because it circumvents the need to deliver via the app store (and the $$$ they collect through the Apple Developer Program) but there's no reason background services and processes can't be implemented in JavaScript.

jjoonathan 8y ago
People openly booed Steve Jobs in 2007 when he announced that the iphone would only support webapps. Obviously Apple changed their tune, but it would be funny if they started dragging their heels in the other direction.
- mikece 8y ago
  Apple didn't have the app store and it's 30% rake of all transactional revenue at the time. Jobs was somewhat notorious about being adamantly opposed to something one day and then announcing to the world that Apple had created a best-in-class product that he previously said they would never make. I seem to recall him saying they would never make a tablet device -- that it wasn't so critical to surf the web on the toilet as people seemed to think it was. Until the iPad was ready for launch. And we learned in the Walter Isaacson biography of Jobs that the iPad project existed before the iPhone project did!
  - hrayr 8y ago
    Also don't forget his famous comments on no one will watch video on small screens and no need for big phones. I don't think any of his comments were lack of insight, rather it was him playing the market until he was ready.
    - elboru 8y ago
      Come on, so even his mistakes were not mistakes?
      - iainmerrick 8y ago
        Basically yes. This is his famous "reality distortion field."
        lazerpants 8y ago
        Indeed. Somehow people even manage to forget that he died of a typically curable cancer because of his hubris.
        ams6110 8y ago
        Pancreatic cancer is serious business. It's not "typically curable" by any stretch. The 5-year survival rate is 1% - 15% depending on how early it's detected. That said, his holistic approach to treatment didn't help him at all.
        lazerpants 8y ago
        He had a neuroendocrine islet tumor, not pancreatic adenocarcinoma. It has a much higher survival rate... as long as you don't try to treat it with acupuncture. https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2011/10/24/steve-jobs-cancer-treatment-regrets/#2f6a0e947d2e https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2011/10/24/steve-j...
      - hrayr 8y ago
vbezhenar 8y ago
I have the same thoughts. Phones were too slow few years ago, web standards were not mature, so well written native apps were in obvious advantage. Now phones have proper CPUs, lots of RAM, so web apps for many tasks won't be distinguishable from native apps. Web standards are good too. May be Apple will curate list of blessed websites and allow them to launch background services, using icloud payments, etc. This way they'll continue to have their cut and their control.
- fauigerzigerk 8y ago
  5G could help close the gap as well.
stephenr 8y ago
The javascript development community hasn’t exactly shown it has great engineering chops to solve basic problems yet, its a bit soon to be betting the farm on web apps replacing native ones.
badkungfu 8y ago
> A completely different question is whether vendors like Apple will refuse to support something like this because it circumvents the need to deliver via the app store (and the $$$ they collect through the Apple Developer Program) but there's no reason background services and processes can't be implemented in JavaScript. I could see Apple et al resisting, but wouldn't a store still be useful for discoverability and giving the sense that an app is trustworthy? I agree stores would not be _required_ though, and I think that diminishes the value of a store and therefore the cost of listing your app in one.
- mikece 8y ago
  I would take an app search engine -- or several of them -- or a curated lists of "new and interesting PWAs" that anyone can create and maintain versus a gatekeeper (or a collection of gatekeepers with differing standards) who demands to be paid before you can appear as an eligible entity for the platform.
xamarinthrw 8y ago
Can you tell us a bit about your Xamarin experience? I want to create an app where the users would be regular mom and pop- my primary users would be windows and Android and a few iOS (iphone). Would you recommend I go the Xamarin way? Who is xamarin good for and who not?
- mikece 8y ago
  I refer to my period as a Xamarin contractor as "bomb technician programming." The biggest advantage of Xamarin is also the greatest source of its problems: anyone who programs C# can start a Xamarin.Forms app and get a proof-of-concept sufficiently advanced to show their boss who will run it up the chain and get it approved as a project. And THEN the devs -- who are awesome web developers -- begin to realize just how much they don't know about mobile and that they've coded themselves into more than a few corners and aren't sure how to get out... and I know this from first-hand experience from my first couple Xamarin projects. There comes a point where you realize that knowing C# is only part of the solution. You wouldn't take an accomplished ASP.NET MVC developer who has only done web work and assign them to an Akka.net or advanced, massively concurrent, highly-multi-threaded Windows Service project and expect them to succeed right away just because it's all C#. Same idea... different platform. Xamarin is great for people who want to use C# to write mobile apps and know the underlying platforms well enough to know where the landmines are and how to side-step them. There's undeniable time-savings in being able to write non-platform-specific code one time and just link to it from the Xamarin.iOS and Xamarin.Android project. It's also possible to write cross platform apps very, very quickly with Xamarin.Forms if you understand where the issues are there as well... But it's even faster to just write a mobile web site. When I am asked for my recommendations for a mobile app idea my first question always is: "Can this be done with a mobile web site (which is PWA these days)?" If yes, why go further? If you really want the app store exposure then packing up your PWA as a hybrid app isn't all that difficult so mobile web is still my first choice. It's not unless you have specific, unambiguous needs that mobile web or hybrid cannot handle that going native -- Xamarin or otherwise -- is recommended. Keep it simple, deliver value, and go home happy and a little richer.
  - HillaryBriss 8y ago
al2o3cr 8y ago
I can't imagine why they'd "drag their feet" on doing free work to enable pseudo-apps with "near-native" performance and nonstandard UX. Snark aside, I've heard very little marketing around PWA that explains why users should want them - almost everything is focused on benefits for developers.

by mikece 8y ago

jjoonathan 8y ago

People openly booed Steve Jobs in 2007 when he announced that the iphone would only support webapps. Obviously Apple changed their tune, but it would be funny if they started dragging their heels in the other direction.

mikece 8y ago
Apple didn't have the app store and it's 30% rake of all transactional revenue at the time. Jobs was somewhat notorious about being adamantly opposed to something one day and then announcing to the world that Apple had created a best-in-class product that he previously said they would never make. I seem to recall him saying they would never make a tablet device -- that it wasn't so critical to surf the web on the toilet as people seemed to think it was. Until the iPad was ready for launch. And we learned in the Walter Isaacson biography of Jobs that the iPad project existed before the iPhone project did!
- hrayr 8y ago
  Also don't forget his famous comments on no one will watch video on small screens and no need for big phones. I don't think any of his comments were lack of insight, rather it was him playing the market until he was ready.
  - elboru 8y ago
    Come on, so even his mistakes were not mistakes?
    - iainmerrick 8y ago
      Basically yes. This is his famous "reality distortion field."
      - lazerpants 8y ago
        Indeed. Somehow people even manage to forget that he died of a typically curable cancer because of his hubris.
        ams6110 8y ago
        Pancreatic cancer is serious business. It's not "typically curable" by any stretch. The 5-year survival rate is 1% - 15% depending on how early it's detected. That said, his holistic approach to treatment didn't help him at all.
        lazerpants 8y ago
        He had a neuroendocrine islet tumor, not pancreatic adenocarcinoma. It has a much higher survival rate... as long as you don't try to treat it with acupuncture. https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2011/10/24/steve-jobs-cancer-treatment-regrets/#2f6a0e947d2e https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2011/10/24/steve-j...
    - hrayr 8y ago

vbezhenar 8y ago

I have the same thoughts. Phones were too slow few years ago, web standards were not mature, so well written native apps were in obvious advantage. Now phones have proper CPUs, lots of RAM, so web apps for many tasks won't be distinguishable from native apps. Web standards are good too. May be Apple will curate list of blessed websites and allow them to launch background services, using icloud payments, etc. This way they'll continue to have their cut and their control.

fauigerzigerk 8y ago
5G could help close the gap as well.

stephenr 8y ago

The javascript development community hasn’t exactly shown it has great engineering chops to solve basic problems yet, its a bit soon to be betting the farm on web apps replacing native ones.

badkungfu 8y ago

> A completely different question is whether vendors like Apple will refuse to support something like this because it circumvents the need to deliver via the app store (and the $$$ they collect through the Apple Developer Program) but there's no reason background services and processes can't be implemented in JavaScript. I could see Apple et al resisting, but wouldn't a store still be useful for discoverability and giving the sense that an app is trustworthy? I agree stores would not be _required_ though, and I think that diminishes the value of a store and therefore the cost of listing your app in one.

mikece 8y ago
I would take an app search engine -- or several of them -- or a curated lists of "new and interesting PWAs" that anyone can create and maintain versus a gatekeeper (or a collection of gatekeepers with differing standards) who demands to be paid before you can appear as an eligible entity for the platform.

xamarinthrw 8y ago

Can you tell us a bit about your Xamarin experience? I want to create an app where the users would be regular mom and pop- my primary users would be windows and Android and a few iOS (iphone). Would you recommend I go the Xamarin way? Who is xamarin good for and who not?

mikece 8y ago
I refer to my period as a Xamarin contractor as "bomb technician programming." The biggest advantage of Xamarin is also the greatest source of its problems: anyone who programs C# can start a Xamarin.Forms app and get a proof-of-concept sufficiently advanced to show their boss who will run it up the chain and get it approved as a project. And THEN the devs -- who are awesome web developers -- begin to realize just how much they don't know about mobile and that they've coded themselves into more than a few corners and aren't sure how to get out... and I know this from first-hand experience from my first couple Xamarin projects. There comes a point where you realize that knowing C# is only part of the solution. You wouldn't take an accomplished ASP.NET MVC developer who has only done web work and assign them to an Akka.net or advanced, massively concurrent, highly-multi-threaded Windows Service project and expect them to succeed right away just because it's all C#. Same idea... different platform. Xamarin is great for people who want to use C# to write mobile apps and know the underlying platforms well enough to know where the landmines are and how to side-step them. There's undeniable time-savings in being able to write non-platform-specific code one time and just link to it from the Xamarin.iOS and Xamarin.Android project. It's also possible to write cross platform apps very, very quickly with Xamarin.Forms if you understand where the issues are there as well... But it's even faster to just write a mobile web site. When I am asked for my recommendations for a mobile app idea my first question always is: "Can this be done with a mobile web site (which is PWA these days)?" If yes, why go further? If you really want the app store exposure then packing up your PWA as a hybrid app isn't all that difficult so mobile web is still my first choice. It's not unless you have specific, unambiguous needs that mobile web or hybrid cannot handle that going native -- Xamarin or otherwise -- is recommended. Keep it simple, deliver value, and go home happy and a little richer.
- HillaryBriss 8y ago

al2o3cr 8y ago

I can't imagine why they'd "drag their feet" on doing free work to enable pseudo-apps with "near-native" performance and nonstandard UX. Snark aside, I've heard very little marketing around PWA that explains why users should want them - almost everything is focused on benefits for developers.