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I'm not attempting to derail, or to engage in OS partisanship, AT ALL. I'm actually hoping I can get a more nuanced answer here, at HN, than I might posing the

I'm not attempting to derail, or to engage in OS partisanship, AT ALL. I'm actually hoping I can get a more nuanced answer here, at HN, than I might posing the question elsewhere. What do you mean specifically about the walled garden? Is it just the fact that it's a bit of a hassle to get apps on an iOS device without going through the store, or is it something else? (I'm absolutely not trying to argue your preference; some people just like Android's take on the mobile OS better, and that's fine. I'm specifically interested in your comment about the walled garden, and what that prevents or gets in the way of for you.)

delecti 8y ago
> it's a bit of a hassle to get apps on an iOS device without going through the store You seem to be deliberately understating the difficulty. For the overwhelming majority of the people, it's simply not an option. I'm not who you're replying to, but it's hard to honestly argue that Apple doesn't maintain a walled garden unless you come up with a euphemistic term that means the same thing but sounds more generous. It's entirely possible that such a model doesn't bother you, and it clearly doesn't bother most of their enormous customer base, but that doesn't make it not the case.
- ubermonkey 8y ago
  I'm really not. I have apps on my iOS devices right now that I didn't get from the app store; all I had to do was download them from the publisher, and then accept their signature in the security settings. (In my case, it's the frozen-in-amber old version of Sonos, which they'll let you have if you ask for it, but presumably this would work for anything.) Anyway, you're coming at me apparently ready to argue about whether it is or isn't a walled garden. That isn't what I'm asking about. I'm asking what, specifically, Apple won't let you do that you want or need to do that leads you to describe it as a walled garden.
kodablah 8y ago
> Is it just the fact that it's a bit of a hassle to get apps on an iOS device without going through the store, or is it something else? A bit? Maybe you can provide a nuanced answer here. As a user, when browsing a site on my iPhone, what steps do I need to take to download software from a website and run it? Can you provide an example of a website that provides their software for iPhone download without Apple's permission? I can build and publish an APK on my website without Google's approval. That approval is the wall, the only place to get apps is the garden.
- ubermonkey 8y ago
  There's not a broad repo of software other than the app store, but see my other comment: Sonos distributes a prior version of their controller via their own web site. You download it from there, but you have to give the "okay" in the security settings to trust it before it'll work. Another example is Blink.io, which is currently the best terminal emulator for iOS. (It works GREAT, btw -- I can use emacs and orgmode in it, even.) Blink is in the app store, at $19.99, but you can also download and build from source and get it on your device that way. That's more trouble than most folks will go to, but my assumption is that it's not too high a bar for most folks who are seriously sideloading software on Android.
hedora 8y ago
The main problem with the walled garden is that it takes control away from the end user. In exchange, apple can provide a better end-to-end experience. Android fixes this with side loading, but forces you into a surveillance model that many find unacceptable. At win phone’s peak many people (including me) incorrectly thought that MS would be able to provide the best of both worlds, since that’s what windows used to be, and they weren’t ad dependent at the time. With Win 10, it is clear that they’re going the opposite direction: surveillance + walled garden + pay for the OS and services. This let’s them triple monitize the windows platform, so it is great for the short term stock price, but it is a risky, user-hostile, bet. Full disclosure: had android, then win phone, typing this on an iPhone.
- ubermonkey 8y ago
  MSFT has historically had a REALLY hard time doing anything objectively good and successful in mobile. It's amazing to me, given their resources. I think, in the Ballmer years, what hurt them was his ideological obsession with Windows Everywhere -- like, down to the Start button. I'm still pretty convinced that mobile needs a fundamentally different interface than desktop, and not coincidentally that's the way Apple has approached it. MSFT under Nadella is way better in lots of ways, but they still seem to think Windows oughta be the way for every device, and it hurts them.
eXpl0it3r 8y ago
Are there any legal ways (as in not breaking any ToS) to get iOS apps onto your phone which aren't in the app store? The walled garden doesn't stop at apps and the app store, but it includes how easy it is to integrate non-Apple products into your Apple device or how easy it is to integrate Apple devices into non-Apple products. Which is often near or completely impossible and Apple doesn't provide any support for it. If it's non-Apple there's no reason to support it. Just take a look what they did to OpenGL. Open standards implemented by pretty much everyone gets deprecated for their proprietary Metal implementation. The walled garden isn't only about apps, but it's any interaction with the non-Apple world or from the non-Apple to the Apple world that is being made very complicated if not impossible at times.
- ubermonkey 8y ago
  >Are there any legal ways (as in not breaking any ToS) to get iOS apps onto your phone which aren't in the app store? Yes, there are. You can compile your own and sideload, or you can download precompiled apps and allow them to execute explicitly in the security settings. It's just that most people don't care to bother. I get that "the walled garden isn't only about apps," but I really don't see examples of it being a problem. You broadened the question to "Apple" from "iOS;" are you aware there's absolutely no walled garden AT ALL for apps on the Mac? You can download software from ANYWHERE YOU WANT; my emacs build came from gnu.org. As a Mac user in a Windows world I've always been able to interoperate pretty well, at least at the user/app level. For example, both OS X and iOS have native Exchange support, which is huge. (And the native tools are more capable than Outlook in lots of interesting ways that aren't germane here.) This is something that Apple explicitly supports. Macs talk to Windows file shares without issue. So I guess I don't really know what you mean here at all. I can't speak to OpenGL, but given that Apple development has always kind of gone its own way I'm not sure that's a great example of a walled garden where actual user experience is concerned. Can you say more about why that applies?

delecti 8y ago

> it's a bit of a hassle to get apps on an iOS device without going through the store You seem to be deliberately understating the difficulty. For the overwhelming majority of the people, it's simply not an option. I'm not who you're replying to, but it's hard to honestly argue that Apple doesn't maintain a walled garden unless you come up with a euphemistic term that means the same thing but sounds more generous. It's entirely possible that such a model doesn't bother you, and it clearly doesn't bother most of their enormous customer base, but that doesn't make it not the case.

ubermonkey 8y ago
I'm really not. I have apps on my iOS devices right now that I didn't get from the app store; all I had to do was download them from the publisher, and then accept their signature in the security settings. (In my case, it's the frozen-in-amber old version of Sonos, which they'll let you have if you ask for it, but presumably this would work for anything.) Anyway, you're coming at me apparently ready to argue about whether it is or isn't a walled garden. That isn't what I'm asking about. I'm asking what, specifically, Apple won't let you do that you want or need to do that leads you to describe it as a walled garden.

kodablah 8y ago

> Is it just the fact that it's a bit of a hassle to get apps on an iOS device without going through the store, or is it something else? A bit? Maybe you can provide a nuanced answer here. As a user, when browsing a site on my iPhone, what steps do I need to take to download software from a website and run it? Can you provide an example of a website that provides their software for iPhone download without Apple's permission? I can build and publish an APK on my website without Google's approval. That approval is the wall, the only place to get apps is the garden.

ubermonkey 8y ago
There's not a broad repo of software other than the app store, but see my other comment: Sonos distributes a prior version of their controller via their own web site. You download it from there, but you have to give the "okay" in the security settings to trust it before it'll work. Another example is Blink.io, which is currently the best terminal emulator for iOS. (It works GREAT, btw -- I can use emacs and orgmode in it, even.) Blink is in the app store, at $19.99, but you can also download and build from source and get it on your device that way. That's more trouble than most folks will go to, but my assumption is that it's not too high a bar for most folks who are seriously sideloading software on Android.

hedora 8y ago

The main problem with the walled garden is that it takes control away from the end user. In exchange, apple can provide a better end-to-end experience. Android fixes this with side loading, but forces you into a surveillance model that many find unacceptable. At win phone’s peak many people (including me) incorrectly thought that MS would be able to provide the best of both worlds, since that’s what windows used to be, and they weren’t ad dependent at the time. With Win 10, it is clear that they’re going the opposite direction: surveillance + walled garden + pay for the OS and services. This let’s them triple monitize the windows platform, so it is great for the short term stock price, but it is a risky, user-hostile, bet. Full disclosure: had android, then win phone, typing this on an iPhone.

ubermonkey 8y ago
MSFT has historically had a REALLY hard time doing anything objectively good and successful in mobile. It's amazing to me, given their resources. I think, in the Ballmer years, what hurt them was his ideological obsession with Windows Everywhere -- like, down to the Start button. I'm still pretty convinced that mobile needs a fundamentally different interface than desktop, and not coincidentally that's the way Apple has approached it. MSFT under Nadella is way better in lots of ways, but they still seem to think Windows oughta be the way for every device, and it hurts them.

eXpl0it3r 8y ago

Are there any legal ways (as in not breaking any ToS) to get iOS apps onto your phone which aren't in the app store? The walled garden doesn't stop at apps and the app store, but it includes how easy it is to integrate non-Apple products into your Apple device or how easy it is to integrate Apple devices into non-Apple products. Which is often near or completely impossible and Apple doesn't provide any support for it. If it's non-Apple there's no reason to support it. Just take a look what they did to OpenGL. Open standards implemented by pretty much everyone gets deprecated for their proprietary Metal implementation. The walled garden isn't only about apps, but it's any interaction with the non-Apple world or from the non-Apple to the Apple world that is being made very complicated if not impossible at times.

ubermonkey 8y ago
>Are there any legal ways (as in not breaking any ToS) to get iOS apps onto your phone which aren't in the app store? Yes, there are. You can compile your own and sideload, or you can download precompiled apps and allow them to execute explicitly in the security settings. It's just that most people don't care to bother. I get that "the walled garden isn't only about apps," but I really don't see examples of it being a problem. You broadened the question to "Apple" from "iOS;" are you aware there's absolutely no walled garden AT ALL for apps on the Mac? You can download software from ANYWHERE YOU WANT; my emacs build came from gnu.org. As a Mac user in a Windows world I've always been able to interoperate pretty well, at least at the user/app level. For example, both OS X and iOS have native Exchange support, which is huge. (And the native tools are more capable than Outlook in lots of interesting ways that aren't germane here.) This is something that Apple explicitly supports. Macs talk to Windows file shares without issue. So I guess I don't really know what you mean here at all. I can't speak to OpenGL, but given that Apple development has always kind of gone its own way I'm not sure that's a great example of a walled garden where actual user experience is concerned. Can you say more about why that applies?