3 ms·

Why do you presuppose that the money was spent irresponsibly?

by dlp211 8y ago

gaius 8y ago
Because if The People were seeing the value, they wouldn’t be fighting it. Consider the Swedish model, taxes are high but the government is visibly doing a lot of stuff. Whereas the California model is taxes are high and no one is really sure where the money went.
- dmix 8y ago
  Indeed, this was still the result of 'legislating democratically'. It was a self-imposed limitation by elected officials, it didn't come about arbitrarily but as a response to some political environment or consequences of actions. All bad laws were started with good intentions. That should never be what defines a law's value, only cause & effect to the best of our current understanding (and hopefully backed by data). Note: I'm not saying this is a bad law as I'm not familiar with the local political environment which motivated this nor the particular negative consequences it objectively has.
blackflame7000 8y ago
Have you ever been to the DMV? Or the Social Security Administration? The VA? The Post Office? Waited for the IRS? Waited for Zoning Commissions? ... Any government beyond the microscopic level can't maintain efficiency. Too many hands in the cookie jar.
- mtviewdave 8y ago
  >Have you ever been to the DMV? Last time I was there (California DMV) it was to pick up a custom license plate. I made an appointment and was in and out in less than 5 minutes. I spent more time in the parking lot removing my old plates and installing the new ones. >Social Security Administration? Had to get my Social Security replaced a few years ago. Was in an out in a reasonable time (comparable to a doctor appointment) >The Post Office USPS works fine for me. Also had no problems getting a business license from either the City of Mountain View, or San Francisco. The staff at Mountain View City Hall were also very helpful in verifying that local zoning permitted me to run my software consultancy out of my home (it does). The thing is, there are actual parts of government that are terrible. Caltrans (aka California Department of Transportation) is quite incompetent. Apparently, if there's a big transportation project in California, often the first goal is to try to figure out how to get someone other than Caltrans to run it. When that fails, you get messes like the new Bay Bridge. The VTA (who runs public transportation in Santa Clara County), also seems quite inept, with light rail lines that are little used and obviously dumb ideas like a BRT lane on El Camino Real. It would be nice if people who are skeptical of government would direct their skepticism at the parts that are the most broken, rather than just pulling out Stereotypical Examples of Government Incompetence (DMV, Post Office) that actually work fairly well most of the time.
  - blackflame7000 8y ago
    Your results do not represent the norm. I could rebut each point but whats the use? Things won't ever get better because people are ok with mediocre.
    - dlp211 8y ago
      I think your expectations are out of alignment.
- dlp211 8y ago
  Why do attribute that to poor resource allocation and not under funding? And I've used all of them with little or no issues. The DMV being the biggest pain point in one state, but it works quite well in my current state.
barsonme 8y ago
Conversely, why would we presuppose it wasn't? It seems to me the onus should be on the government, since they're the ones taking our money. Once they've (1) proven they spend our money wisely, and (2) shown they have real need of more, they should be given more. The constitutional limits definitely have their drawbacks, but they prevent the frogs (us) from being boiled alive.
- dlp211 8y ago
  I didn't. I made no qualifying statement about the allocation of money in government. If you (the collective) are going to make an assumption, be ready to defend it.
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> Why do you presuppose that the money was spent irresponsibly? BART drivers. Coming in from New York, another high-tax state, the paucity of services in California is surprising.

Why do you presuppose that the money was spent irresponsibly?

by dlp211 8y ago

Why do you presuppose that the money was spent irresponsibly?

Because if The People were seeing the value, they wouldn’t be fighting it. Consider the Swedish model, taxes are high but the government is visibly doing a lot of stuff. Whereas the California model is taxes are high and no one is really sure where the money went.

dmix 8y ago
Indeed, this was still the result of 'legislating democratically'. It was a self-imposed limitation by elected officials, it didn't come about arbitrarily but as a response to some political environment or consequences of actions. All bad laws were started with good intentions. That should never be what defines a law's value, only cause & effect to the best of our current understanding (and hopefully backed by data). Note: I'm not saying this is a bad law as I'm not familiar with the local political environment which motivated this nor the particular negative consequences it objectively has.

blackflame7000 8y ago

Have you ever been to the DMV? Or the Social Security Administration? The VA? The Post Office? Waited for the IRS? Waited for Zoning Commissions? ... Any government beyond the microscopic level can't maintain efficiency. Too many hands in the cookie jar.

mtviewdave 8y ago
>Have you ever been to the DMV? Last time I was there (California DMV) it was to pick up a custom license plate. I made an appointment and was in and out in less than 5 minutes. I spent more time in the parking lot removing my old plates and installing the new ones. >Social Security Administration? Had to get my Social Security replaced a few years ago. Was in an out in a reasonable time (comparable to a doctor appointment) >The Post Office USPS works fine for me. Also had no problems getting a business license from either the City of Mountain View, or San Francisco. The staff at Mountain View City Hall were also very helpful in verifying that local zoning permitted me to run my software consultancy out of my home (it does). The thing is, there are actual parts of government that are terrible. Caltrans (aka California Department of Transportation) is quite incompetent. Apparently, if there's a big transportation project in California, often the first goal is to try to figure out how to get someone other than Caltrans to run it. When that fails, you get messes like the new Bay Bridge. The VTA (who runs public transportation in Santa Clara County), also seems quite inept, with light rail lines that are little used and obviously dumb ideas like a BRT lane on El Camino Real. It would be nice if people who are skeptical of government would direct their skepticism at the parts that are the most broken, rather than just pulling out Stereotypical Examples of Government Incompetence (DMV, Post Office) that actually work fairly well most of the time.
- blackflame7000 8y ago
  Your results do not represent the norm. I could rebut each point but whats the use? Things won't ever get better because people are ok with mediocre.
  - dlp211 8y ago
    I think your expectations are out of alignment.
dlp211 8y ago
Why do attribute that to poor resource allocation and not under funding? And I've used all of them with little or no issues. The DMV being the biggest pain point in one state, but it works quite well in my current state.

barsonme 8y ago

Conversely, why would we presuppose it wasn't? It seems to me the onus should be on the government, since they're the ones taking our money. Once they've (1) proven they spend our money wisely, and (2) shown they have real need of more, they should be given more. The constitutional limits definitely have their drawbacks, but they prevent the frogs (us) from being boiled alive.

dlp211 8y ago
I didn't. I made no qualifying statement about the allocation of money in government. If you (the collective) are going to make an assumption, be ready to defend it.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

> Why do you presuppose that the money was spent irresponsibly? BART drivers. Coming in from New York, another high-tax state, the paucity of services in California is surprising.