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You and tptacek are putting words like "cabal" in his mouth. The mainstream press beyond Hersh has reported on Christian fundamentalism at leadership levels at

You and tptacek are putting words like "cabal" in his mouth. The mainstream press beyond Hersh has reported on Christian fundamentalism at leadership levels at the USAFA during Bush's presidency. Also former undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence General Boykin's actions and statements. There are also stories Bush told Chirac about Gig and Magog, and biblical prophecy during the war in Iraq. How true that is I do not know. I see this type of talk on cable TV late at night where I live. I can imagine what radio and TV in Oklahoma or Mississippi is playing. I am not surprised this has gotten into the water. Nor do I find it odd Hersh would mention this in an interview or speech, it must seem strange to a rational secular person like himself. The military fundamentalist news was not Hersh specific and was reported more widely.

tptacek 8y ago
I didn't use the word "cabal". I used "conspiracy". "They have little insignias, these coins they pass among each other, which are crusader coins." Those are his words. I don't think I'm reaching too far. (The funny thing is, I think he's talking about challenge coins --- that is, I think he's another civilian confronted by the lunacy that is challenge coin culture and believing that it must be some crazy thing that just a few people in the government are doing because they're out of their skulls, and not a weird thing that everyone in the federal government does because they are all collectively out of their skulls. You saw the same thing with claims about Trump minting his own special currency --- and Obama before that.)
- JackCh 8y ago
  >"I didn't use the word "cabal". I used "conspiracy"." You didn't? >"Among them, he believes that USSOCOM is run by a secret cabal of Opus Dei Catholics"
80386 8y ago
There's a big difference between the "Christian fundamentalism" of Bush and Boykin and Hersh's Knights of Malta line: Bush and Boykin are Protestants, and the Knights of Malta is a Catholic order. (So is Opus Dei.)
danso 8y ago
"cabal" is defined as "a secret political clique or faction." I'm not sure what you're arguing here. You're accusing me that I'm overselling what Hersh said. And then you basically say, well, other people have reported this stuff too. Post links to what you say. And frankly I don't care about various reports "about leadership levels at the USAFA". I'm not arguing whether or not there are fundamentalists in the military. The original discussion were assertions that Hersh made that have been questioned. Hersh made assertions about two people specifically -- McChrystal and McRaven, of being secret members/supporters of religious groups. AFAIK, he still may be right, even though McChrystal, at least, has outright denied it: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/20/AR2011012006090.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01...
- imbokodo 8y ago
  That link reminds me of when Bush said "This crusade - this war on terrorism - is going to take a while". If Bush described the war on terror as a crusade, I don't see how out there Hersh is when he says some officers see the war on terror as a crusade. Also General Boykin is listed as the Grand Chancellor of the Knights of Malta on their web page ( http://www.theknightshospitallers.org/grand-chancellor.html http://www.theknightshospitallers.org/grand-chancellor.html ). The old crusader order. Boykin gave a speech in a church in October 2003 that seemed to cast the war as a holy war between Christianity and Islam. This sentiment exists for some in the military and Hersh mentions it in speeches and interviews.
  - danso 8y ago
    Again, I don't know what your line of argument here is. I'm not denying that there exist devout Christians in the U.S. military, including its leadership. But I believe the point tptacek was trying to make was that since Abu Ghraib, Hersh has been accused of imprecise, unsubstantiated reporting and assertions. What does General Boykin -- who retired in 2007 -- have to do with McRaven and McChrystal? If Hersh wanted to talk about Christians in the military, yes, I agree, Gen. Boykin sounds like a more obvious example. But that's not the interesting claim that Hersh made.

tptacek 8y ago

I didn't use the word "cabal". I used "conspiracy". "They have little insignias, these coins they pass among each other, which are crusader coins." Those are his words. I don't think I'm reaching too far. (The funny thing is, I think he's talking about challenge coins --- that is, I think he's another civilian confronted by the lunacy that is challenge coin culture and believing that it must be some crazy thing that just a few people in the government are doing because they're out of their skulls, and not a weird thing that everyone in the federal government does because they are all collectively out of their skulls. You saw the same thing with claims about Trump minting his own special currency --- and Obama before that.)

JackCh 8y ago
>"I didn't use the word "cabal". I used "conspiracy"." You didn't? >"Among them, he believes that USSOCOM is run by a secret cabal of Opus Dei Catholics"

80386 8y ago

There's a big difference between the "Christian fundamentalism" of Bush and Boykin and Hersh's Knights of Malta line: Bush and Boykin are Protestants, and the Knights of Malta is a Catholic order. (So is Opus Dei.)

danso 8y ago

"cabal" is defined as "a secret political clique or faction." I'm not sure what you're arguing here. You're accusing me that I'm overselling what Hersh said. And then you basically say, well, other people have reported this stuff too. Post links to what you say. And frankly I don't care about various reports "about leadership levels at the USAFA". I'm not arguing whether or not there are fundamentalists in the military. The original discussion were assertions that Hersh made that have been questioned. Hersh made assertions about two people specifically -- McChrystal and McRaven, of being secret members/supporters of religious groups. AFAIK, he still may be right, even though McChrystal, at least, has outright denied it: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/20/AR2011012006090.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01...

imbokodo 8y ago
That link reminds me of when Bush said "This crusade - this war on terrorism - is going to take a while". If Bush described the war on terror as a crusade, I don't see how out there Hersh is when he says some officers see the war on terror as a crusade. Also General Boykin is listed as the Grand Chancellor of the Knights of Malta on their web page ( http://www.theknightshospitallers.org/grand-chancellor.html http://www.theknightshospitallers.org/grand-chancellor.html ). The old crusader order. Boykin gave a speech in a church in October 2003 that seemed to cast the war as a holy war between Christianity and Islam. This sentiment exists for some in the military and Hersh mentions it in speeches and interviews.
- danso 8y ago
  Again, I don't know what your line of argument here is. I'm not denying that there exist devout Christians in the U.S. military, including its leadership. But I believe the point tptacek was trying to make was that since Abu Ghraib, Hersh has been accused of imprecise, unsubstantiated reporting and assertions. What does General Boykin -- who retired in 2007 -- have to do with McRaven and McChrystal? If Hersh wanted to talk about Christians in the military, yes, I agree, Gen. Boykin sounds like a more obvious example. But that's not the interesting claim that Hersh made.