4 ms·

The full content of Hersh's remarks are linked to in the first sentence of the previously linked commentary: http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/01/22/transcript-the

by danso 8y ago

The full content of Hersh's remarks are linked to in the first sentence of the previously linked commentary: http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/01/22/transcript-the-obamabush-foreign-policies-why-cant-america-change/ http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/01/22/transcript-the-obamabush... tptacek's summary is accurate; Hersh did not just claim that "many" people in the military were in this cabal, Hersh claimed that "a large percentage" of JSOC and SOCOM were involved or supported this religious cabal, including Admiral McRaven, who commanded SOCCOM from 2011 to 2014. > That’s an attitude that pervades, I’m here to say, a large percentage of the Special Operations Command, the Joint Special Operations Command and Stanley McChrystal, the one who got in trouble because of the article in Rolling Stone, and his follow-on, a Navy admiral named McRaven, Bill McRaven — all are members or at least supporters of Knights of Malta. McRaven attended, so I understand, the recent annual convention of the Knights of Malta they had in Cyprus a few months back in November. They’re all believers — many of them are members of Opus Dei.

dtornabene 8y ago
this is seriously some very thinly sliced semantics, all of which is sidestepping the thing I have now repeated in 5 different comments; that Hersh was right to point out the incredible level of anti-muslim bigotry, of a very specific religious character that dominated (and probably still dominates) the upper levels of the special forces. Its amazing that ya'll are going this deep on something that is so widely documented. Chris Kyles autobiography spoke to some of this. Mike Weinstein, whose name I've now typed, what, four, five times, has a foundation specifically documenting and challenging religious intolerance and specifically christian supremacy/theocracy in the military and he has his hands full 24/7. https://truthout.org/articles/us-army-special-forces-officially-recruit-for-mission-for-god/ https://truthout.org/articles/us-army-special-forces-officia... Not once has Thomas or now you, addressed this. Jeremy Scahill has covered this in both reported pieces, interviews and at least one book. Here's some more: https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2018/3/29/christian-takeover-us-military https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2018/3/29/christian-take... https://www.economist.com/erasmus/2014/09/09/one-army-under-god https://www.economist.com/erasmus/2014/09/09/one-army-under-... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/12/AR2007081200968.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08... http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/For_God_and_Country_Parco.pdf http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/For_God_... I could go on, citing any number of people from all across the political spectrum. And for the record, no, I think tptaceks summary was not accurate, either in content or in context. Freely throwing around that Hersh thinks the specops brass is run by a cabal is not the same as what he actually said, none, I repeat none of which was actually a reported piece he himself had published. It was a throw away comment in a speech. Full stop. Which, again, is outside of internet slap fights and access journalism types like Blake Hounshell, utterly uncontroversial. I could post links like the above literally all night and not reach the bottom of reporting on the slowly theocratiztion of the upper reaches of the American military.
- danso 8y ago
  As I've replied to someone else downthread, I don't believe I made the argument that the U.S. military did not have Christians. What does this have to do with what Hersh claimed? Yes, it was just a speech. But he didn't preface his assertions as being just gossip. I don't agree that we should completely ignore what a journalist says in public. Hersh has been criticized for making questionable claims in speeches: http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/features/11719/ http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/features/11719/ He's seen (rightly) as an authority, and he's speaking in a venue where the topic is non-fiction. People have a right to question those assertions and ask for evidence, which he is free to provide or to walk back.
  - dtornabene 8y ago
    1) Its not about "there being christians" in the military, thats a total straw man. Its about the most lethal branch of the service being dominated by those who see their conduct as the prosecution of a religious war. How is this difficult? 2) I never said that "we should ignore what a journalist says in public" I was contrasting a few comments that are pretty uncontroversial to anyone with domain knowledge to a deeply reported piece and treating those comments as if they were in any way determinative of his worldview, or that to quote tptacek "he's suffered a precipitous decline" because he notes the dominance of a radical theocratic bent among JSOC. How have ya'll spent more than half a dozen comments now with out reckoning with any of the pieces I've linked? Seriously. I've linked a number of pieces now backing up what Hersh has said. Aren't you a journalist? Even a professor of journalism?
    - tptacek 8y ago
      First, you're misrepresenting my argument. Hersh's decline isn't due to his supposed JSOC Catholic conspiracy; it's due largely to the UBL story. Second, you're sugarcoating Hersh's argument about JSOC/USSOCOM. If all Hersh had said was that there were an unusual and disquieting number of fundamentalist Christians in the high ranks of SOCOM, few people would bat an eyelash. But he didn't say that. He said that USSOCOM was run by a secret conspiracy of Opus Dei and the Knights of Malta. He is, if not 100%, then at least 96.3% into Umberto Eco territory here. Check back in another 5-10 years (maybe after his Cheney book is published?) and we'll see if he hasn't made it all the way to 23 Skidoo.
imbokodo 8y ago
You and tptacek are putting words like "cabal" in his mouth. The mainstream press beyond Hersh has reported on Christian fundamentalism at leadership levels at the USAFA during Bush's presidency. Also former undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence General Boykin's actions and statements. There are also stories Bush told Chirac about Gig and Magog, and biblical prophecy during the war in Iraq. How true that is I do not know. I see this type of talk on cable TV late at night where I live. I can imagine what radio and TV in Oklahoma or Mississippi is playing. I am not surprised this has gotten into the water. Nor do I find it odd Hersh would mention this in an interview or speech, it must seem strange to a rational secular person like himself. The military fundamentalist news was not Hersh specific and was reported more widely.
- tptacek 8y ago
  I didn't use the word "cabal". I used "conspiracy". "They have little insignias, these coins they pass among each other, which are crusader coins." Those are his words. I don't think I'm reaching too far. (The funny thing is, I think he's talking about challenge coins --- that is, I think he's another civilian confronted by the lunacy that is challenge coin culture and believing that it must be some crazy thing that just a few people in the government are doing because they're out of their skulls, and not a weird thing that everyone in the federal government does because they are all collectively out of their skulls. You saw the same thing with claims about Trump minting his own special currency --- and Obama before that.)
  - JackCh 8y ago
    >"I didn't use the word "cabal". I used "conspiracy"." You didn't? >"Among them, he believes that USSOCOM is run by a secret cabal of Opus Dei Catholics"
- 80386 8y ago
  There's a big difference between the "Christian fundamentalism" of Bush and Boykin and Hersh's Knights of Malta line: Bush and Boykin are Protestants, and the Knights of Malta is a Catholic order. (So is Opus Dei.)
- 8y ago

by danso 8y ago

dtornabene 8y ago

this is seriously some very thinly sliced semantics, all of which is sidestepping the thing I have now repeated in 5 different comments; that Hersh was right to point out the incredible level of anti-muslim bigotry, of a very specific religious character that dominated (and probably still dominates) the upper levels of the special forces. Its amazing that ya'll are going this deep on something that is so widely documented. Chris Kyles autobiography spoke to some of this. Mike Weinstein, whose name I've now typed, what, four, five times, has a foundation specifically documenting and challenging religious intolerance and specifically christian supremacy/theocracy in the military and he has his hands full 24/7. https://truthout.org/articles/us-army-special-forces-officially-recruit-for-mission-for-god/ https://truthout.org/articles/us-army-special-forces-officia... Not once has Thomas or now you, addressed this. Jeremy Scahill has covered this in both reported pieces, interviews and at least one book. Here's some more: https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2018/3/29/christian-takeover-us-military https://www.advocate.com/commentary/2018/3/29/christian-take... https://www.economist.com/erasmus/2014/09/09/one-army-under-god https://www.economist.com/erasmus/2014/09/09/one-army-under-... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/12/AR2007081200968.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08... http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/For_God_and_Country_Parco.pdf http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/For_God_... I could go on, citing any number of people from all across the political spectrum. And for the record, no, I think tptaceks summary was not accurate, either in content or in context. Freely throwing around that Hersh thinks the specops brass is run by a cabal is not the same as what he actually said, none, I repeat none of which was actually a reported piece he himself had published. It was a throw away comment in a speech. Full stop. Which, again, is outside of internet slap fights and access journalism types like Blake Hounshell, utterly uncontroversial. I could post links like the above literally all night and not reach the bottom of reporting on the slowly theocratiztion of the upper reaches of the American military.

danso 8y ago
As I've replied to someone else downthread, I don't believe I made the argument that the U.S. military did not have Christians. What does this have to do with what Hersh claimed? Yes, it was just a speech. But he didn't preface his assertions as being just gossip. I don't agree that we should completely ignore what a journalist says in public. Hersh has been criticized for making questionable claims in speeches: http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/features/11719/ http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/features/11719/ He's seen (rightly) as an authority, and he's speaking in a venue where the topic is non-fiction. People have a right to question those assertions and ask for evidence, which he is free to provide or to walk back.
- dtornabene 8y ago
  1) Its not about "there being christians" in the military, thats a total straw man. Its about the most lethal branch of the service being dominated by those who see their conduct as the prosecution of a religious war. How is this difficult? 2) I never said that "we should ignore what a journalist says in public" I was contrasting a few comments that are pretty uncontroversial to anyone with domain knowledge to a deeply reported piece and treating those comments as if they were in any way determinative of his worldview, or that to quote tptacek "he's suffered a precipitous decline" because he notes the dominance of a radical theocratic bent among JSOC. How have ya'll spent more than half a dozen comments now with out reckoning with any of the pieces I've linked? Seriously. I've linked a number of pieces now backing up what Hersh has said. Aren't you a journalist? Even a professor of journalism?
  - tptacek 8y ago
    First, you're misrepresenting my argument. Hersh's decline isn't due to his supposed JSOC Catholic conspiracy; it's due largely to the UBL story. Second, you're sugarcoating Hersh's argument about JSOC/USSOCOM. If all Hersh had said was that there were an unusual and disquieting number of fundamentalist Christians in the high ranks of SOCOM, few people would bat an eyelash. But he didn't say that. He said that USSOCOM was run by a secret conspiracy of Opus Dei and the Knights of Malta. He is, if not 100%, then at least 96.3% into Umberto Eco territory here. Check back in another 5-10 years (maybe after his Cheney book is published?) and we'll see if he hasn't made it all the way to 23 Skidoo.

imbokodo 8y ago

You and tptacek are putting words like "cabal" in his mouth. The mainstream press beyond Hersh has reported on Christian fundamentalism at leadership levels at the USAFA during Bush's presidency. Also former undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence General Boykin's actions and statements. There are also stories Bush told Chirac about Gig and Magog, and biblical prophecy during the war in Iraq. How true that is I do not know. I see this type of talk on cable TV late at night where I live. I can imagine what radio and TV in Oklahoma or Mississippi is playing. I am not surprised this has gotten into the water. Nor do I find it odd Hersh would mention this in an interview or speech, it must seem strange to a rational secular person like himself. The military fundamentalist news was not Hersh specific and was reported more widely.

tptacek 8y ago
I didn't use the word "cabal". I used "conspiracy". "They have little insignias, these coins they pass among each other, which are crusader coins." Those are his words. I don't think I'm reaching too far. (The funny thing is, I think he's talking about challenge coins --- that is, I think he's another civilian confronted by the lunacy that is challenge coin culture and believing that it must be some crazy thing that just a few people in the government are doing because they're out of their skulls, and not a weird thing that everyone in the federal government does because they are all collectively out of their skulls. You saw the same thing with claims about Trump minting his own special currency --- and Obama before that.)
- JackCh 8y ago
  >"I didn't use the word "cabal". I used "conspiracy"." You didn't? >"Among them, he believes that USSOCOM is run by a secret cabal of Opus Dei Catholics"
80386 8y ago
There's a big difference between the "Christian fundamentalism" of Bush and Boykin and Hersh's Knights of Malta line: Bush and Boykin are Protestants, and the Knights of Malta is a Catholic order. (So is Opus Dei.)
8y ago