6 ms·

Here's the full quote on the would be "Opus Dei" comment from the piece, cut and pasted: “Many of them are members of Opus Dei,” Hersh continued. “They do see

Here's the full quote on the would be "Opus Dei" comment from the piece, cut and pasted: “Many of them are members of Opus Dei,” Hersh continued. “They do see what they’re doing — and this is not an atypical attitude among some military — it’s a crusade, literally. They see themselves as the protectors of the Christians. They’re protecting them from the Muslims [as in] the 13th century. And this is their function.” “They have little insignias, these coins they pass among each other, which are crusader coins,” he continued. “They have insignia that reflect the whole notion that this is a culture war. … Right now, there’s a tremendous, tremendous amount of anti-Muslim feeling in the military community.” Thats it. Thats all. "Many of them", "not an atypical attitude". Your quote, that started this sub thread was this: "Among them, he believes that USSOCOM is run by a secret cabal of Opus Dei Catholics". Little bit of a difference here. In fact I'll go out on a limb and say a rather large difference. Again, Jeff Sharlet, Mike Weinstein, there are a number of others who have done the serious, necessary investigative reporting on this and if anything its even more frightening then the comments from the Doha speech Hersh gave (which for the record were also uncontroversial at the time he gave them to anyone who has followed military reporting). I might take a moment to point out I was in ROTC in college, my family has served for generations. You can take my criticism any way you want, but calling out your crit of Hersh, for the sloppiness and exageration it is, is not a personal attack. As for the comment about spy/plant/whatever, I've been on this site long enough to know that was a bit of thing some years back and was trying to go out of my way to note that I don't think that about you, that I think many people make these arguments/judgments from places of sincerity, but that that doesn't make them correct. EDIT: I'm going to assume that Thomas has no interest in seriously reckoning with what I'm trying to say and simply add, anyone who happens on this comment subthread, take the time to read the unfortunately long LRB piece linked in my original comment, its important. Its kind of amazing (and sad) that this discussion devolved into this back and forth because that piece, the response to that piece in the American press (by people exactly Blake Hounshell btw) and the subsequent way things worked out in regard to Mike Flynn, Trump, Obama, the election, and the now Russia Investigation could all themselves be wrapped up into their own long form piece on political and media culture and the consequences of dismissing people like Hersh. Here it is again for the interested: https://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-military https://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-mi...

tptacek 8y ago
You've left quite a bit out of your quote, haven't you? That's OK: I provided a link, people can read it for themselves, rather than reading our competing interpretations of it. I'm pretty comfortable about what the actual story there says about my argument. Thank you for acknowledging that first-hand sources for this actually exist, and aren't "egregious nonsense" that were "off the cuff remarks in a foreign country that were not recorded and have been reported on second and third hand". Perhaps you and I have reached the limit of how much we can productively discuss this particular topic, now.
- dtornabene 8y ago
  Actually, I did miss some of that quote, not "quite a bit", but some. Here it is: “That’s the attitude,” he continued. “We’re gonna change mosques into cathedrals. That’s an attitude that pervades, I’m here to say, a large percentage of the Joint Special Operations Command.” He then alleged that Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who headed JSOC before briefly becoming the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, and his successor, Vice Adm. William McRaven, as well as many within JSOC, “are all members of, or at least supporters of, Knights of Malta.” Which, again, kinda makes my point for me; "pervades a large percentage". Not "theres a cabal of catholics running JSOC" More importantly, none of this is constroversial, at all. Which was your original point. Jerry Boykin, Erik Prince, McRaven, McCrystal, all of these people and many others are, by general consensus, right wing christians and most of them are far, far right wing theocrats. Jerry Boykin in particular has been a fixture of the theocratic speaking circuit for years and was quoted in the middle of Obamas administration as saying that "he's been asked to raise up an army to take out Obama". Again, ad naueseum, Jeff Sharlet, Mike Weinstein in particular. You can play wiki lawyer all you want about the quote but the substance of it was utterly uncontroversial to anyone who didn't depend on access to the pentagon and congress for their livelihood. If you want to back out of the discussion now because I've made you look bad, so be it. The remark about "second and third hand" was a point about their being, to my knowledge, no transcripts or video, it was poorly phrased. Finally maybe leave off the pseudo-moral posturing about being "attacked", given I went out of my way to qualify what I said, and, in a subsequent comment, clarified the "spy" remark and did so precisely because thats charge is a serious one and I had seen you be smeared with it, thanks for literally attacking me.

tptacek 8y ago

You've left quite a bit out of your quote, haven't you? That's OK: I provided a link, people can read it for themselves, rather than reading our competing interpretations of it. I'm pretty comfortable about what the actual story there says about my argument. Thank you for acknowledging that first-hand sources for this actually exist, and aren't "egregious nonsense" that were "off the cuff remarks in a foreign country that were not recorded and have been reported on second and third hand". Perhaps you and I have reached the limit of how much we can productively discuss this particular topic, now.

dtornabene 8y ago
Actually, I did miss some of that quote, not "quite a bit", but some. Here it is: “That’s the attitude,” he continued. “We’re gonna change mosques into cathedrals. That’s an attitude that pervades, I’m here to say, a large percentage of the Joint Special Operations Command.” He then alleged that Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who headed JSOC before briefly becoming the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, and his successor, Vice Adm. William McRaven, as well as many within JSOC, “are all members of, or at least supporters of, Knights of Malta.” Which, again, kinda makes my point for me; "pervades a large percentage". Not "theres a cabal of catholics running JSOC" More importantly, none of this is constroversial, at all. Which was your original point. Jerry Boykin, Erik Prince, McRaven, McCrystal, all of these people and many others are, by general consensus, right wing christians and most of them are far, far right wing theocrats. Jerry Boykin in particular has been a fixture of the theocratic speaking circuit for years and was quoted in the middle of Obamas administration as saying that "he's been asked to raise up an army to take out Obama". Again, ad naueseum, Jeff Sharlet, Mike Weinstein in particular. You can play wiki lawyer all you want about the quote but the substance of it was utterly uncontroversial to anyone who didn't depend on access to the pentagon and congress for their livelihood. If you want to back out of the discussion now because I've made you look bad, so be it. The remark about "second and third hand" was a point about their being, to my knowledge, no transcripts or video, it was poorly phrased. Finally maybe leave off the pseudo-moral posturing about being "attacked", given I went out of my way to qualify what I said, and, in a subsequent comment, clarified the "spy" remark and did so precisely because thats charge is a serious one and I had seen you be smeared with it, thanks for literally attacking me.