6 ms·

"Interestingly enough, the ambitious Aboukhadijeh was a software engineer intern at Facebook when he created Youtube Instant." Hm, I was under the impression F

"Interestingly enough, the ambitious Aboukhadijeh was a software engineer intern at Facebook when he created Youtube Instant." Hm, I was under the impression Facebook didn't allow side projects. I suppose this doesn't apply to interns?

jacquesm 16y ago
Programmers will do 'side projects' in their heads when you tie their hands, it's like painters having to paint and writers having to write. Not allowing side projects is opposing a force of nature. Silly move by facebook.
- feross 16y ago
  I've worked at Facebook all summer as an intern. Never have I been aware of any company policy that forbids side projects.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    For interns that would be pretty weird anyway, after all, it's not like they are under the kind of employment contract where you could reasonably make the case for that. In fact, your best interns probably do have side projects.
ashbrahma 16y ago
What are the IP implications?? Can FB claim the IP since he worked on it while working at FB?
- btilly 16y ago
  Facebook cannot because it happened in California, and California has strong protections. See http://law.justia.com/california/codes/2009/lab/2870-2872.html http://law.justia.com/california/codes/2009/lab/2870-2872.ht... for details. I'm firmly of the belief that this is very good for Silicon Valley. How many people do you know who work at a job and a startup on the side? In California that generally won't get you in trouble. Elsewhere?
  - MalcUK 16y ago
    Similar situation in European countries, where human rights laws override employment contracts.
  - rahim 16y ago
    While I was working at IBM (in California), I tried to get clearance for one of my personal projects [1], the IBM lawyer had this to say: "No, according to California Labor Code 2870, even if you use your own time/equipment, your project still belongs to IBM if your project relates to IBM's business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development. So if you think that your project is not close to anything that IBM is or will be involved in, you can tell your manager about it, and if they agree with your assessment, then you can tell me your project and I will try to get it cleared for you. In my experience though, it is hard to get clearance because IBM is involved in practically everything, esp. in the software field." My manager was ok with it, but the IBM lawyers wouldn't clear it. I doubt they would have pursued any legal actions if I continued working on it, but I figured I'd rather not chance it and let it go. [1] It was a FOSS Firefox add-on called Map+. IBM had a team somewhere that worked on Firefox add-ons, so even though I wasn't on, near, or had access to that team, it was a no go.
    - btilly 16y ago
      Note, this was IBM's lawyer talking, not your own. IBM's interests were represented there, not yours. Lawyers are in the business of convincing people that the law says what they want it to say. However in the case of a dispute it doesn't matter what IBM's lawyer says, it matters what a judge thinks. So of course if you ask IBM's lawyers, they'll represent IBM's interests by making the broadest possible claims for what is IBM's. That doesn't make them right, nor does it mean that they would actually pursue it. But as long as they leave you convinced, they've accomplished their goal. That said, they are correct that the statute gives them that way to claim your work. And the larger the company you're in, the broader that claim can become. And when you listen to their lawyers, the claim will become broader still. Putting that all together, I wouldn't take their word for anything without consulting your own lawyer who represents your interests. Alternately, if it is important to you, you always have the option of telling your manager that this issue is important to you, and you're willing to leave your job if that is what is needed so you can work on your own project. In that situation it is amazing what miracles can happen once it is made clear to the lawyers that giving you the freedom you want is actually in IBM's interest. (Advice from lawyers is very frequently penny wise and pound foolish. The smarter the business, the more strongly they realize that.) Depending on the current job market at the time, it may be advisable to line up another job option before attempting such drastic action.
indigoviolet 16y ago
Facebook doesn't have a 20%-time /program/. That doesn't mean people don't have side-projects on their own time, or even multiple things they're doing at work. Plus they have regular hackathons which sometimes develop into full projects.

jacquesm 16y ago

Programmers will do 'side projects' in their heads when you tie their hands, it's like painters having to paint and writers having to write. Not allowing side projects is opposing a force of nature. Silly move by facebook.

feross 16y ago
I've worked at Facebook all summer as an intern. Never have I been aware of any company policy that forbids side projects.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  For interns that would be pretty weird anyway, after all, it's not like they are under the kind of employment contract where you could reasonably make the case for that. In fact, your best interns probably do have side projects.

ashbrahma 16y ago

What are the IP implications?? Can FB claim the IP since he worked on it while working at FB?

btilly 16y ago
Facebook cannot because it happened in California, and California has strong protections. See http://law.justia.com/california/codes/2009/lab/2870-2872.html http://law.justia.com/california/codes/2009/lab/2870-2872.ht... for details. I'm firmly of the belief that this is very good for Silicon Valley. How many people do you know who work at a job and a startup on the side? In California that generally won't get you in trouble. Elsewhere?
- MalcUK 16y ago
  Similar situation in European countries, where human rights laws override employment contracts.
- rahim 16y ago
  While I was working at IBM (in California), I tried to get clearance for one of my personal projects [1], the IBM lawyer had this to say: "No, according to California Labor Code 2870, even if you use your own time/equipment, your project still belongs to IBM if your project relates to IBM's business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development. So if you think that your project is not close to anything that IBM is or will be involved in, you can tell your manager about it, and if they agree with your assessment, then you can tell me your project and I will try to get it cleared for you. In my experience though, it is hard to get clearance because IBM is involved in practically everything, esp. in the software field." My manager was ok with it, but the IBM lawyers wouldn't clear it. I doubt they would have pursued any legal actions if I continued working on it, but I figured I'd rather not chance it and let it go. [1] It was a FOSS Firefox add-on called Map+. IBM had a team somewhere that worked on Firefox add-ons, so even though I wasn't on, near, or had access to that team, it was a no go.
  - btilly 16y ago
    Note, this was IBM's lawyer talking, not your own. IBM's interests were represented there, not yours. Lawyers are in the business of convincing people that the law says what they want it to say. However in the case of a dispute it doesn't matter what IBM's lawyer says, it matters what a judge thinks. So of course if you ask IBM's lawyers, they'll represent IBM's interests by making the broadest possible claims for what is IBM's. That doesn't make them right, nor does it mean that they would actually pursue it. But as long as they leave you convinced, they've accomplished their goal. That said, they are correct that the statute gives them that way to claim your work. And the larger the company you're in, the broader that claim can become. And when you listen to their lawyers, the claim will become broader still. Putting that all together, I wouldn't take their word for anything without consulting your own lawyer who represents your interests. Alternately, if it is important to you, you always have the option of telling your manager that this issue is important to you, and you're willing to leave your job if that is what is needed so you can work on your own project. In that situation it is amazing what miracles can happen once it is made clear to the lawyers that giving you the freedom you want is actually in IBM's interest. (Advice from lawyers is very frequently penny wise and pound foolish. The smarter the business, the more strongly they realize that.) Depending on the current job market at the time, it may be advisable to line up another job option before attempting such drastic action.

indigoviolet 16y ago

Facebook doesn't have a 20%-time /program/. That doesn't mean people don't have side-projects on their own time, or even multiple things they're doing at work. Plus they have regular hackathons which sometimes develop into full projects.