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This is a problem that is entirely of Apple's own doing. Microsoft could not care less about OpenGL on Windows. However, it works just fine. You know why? As

This is a problem that is entirely of Apple's own doing. Microsoft could not care less about OpenGL on Windows. However, it works just fine. You know why? As soon as you install your video card drivers, your OpenGL implementation is no longer from Microsoft. It comes from AMD, NVidia or Intel, with all needed optimizations for their hardware. Apple insisted in not allowing this and doing the OpenGL implementation themselves (which was always crappy and outdated). Had they allowed the GPU vendors the ability to provide their own implementation, this would have been a non issue.

GeekyBear 8y ago
What makes you think that Apple refuses to allow GPU vendors to provide an OpenGL implementation? The real question is why would a GPU vendor go through the expense of creating and supporting such an implementation when Apple doesn't even make a computer with slots that you can install their video cards into? If producing an OpenGL implementation doesn't provide a competitive advantage for selling their products, why would they bother?
- outworlder 8y ago
  > What makes you think that Apple refuses to allow GPU vendors to provide an OpenGL implementation? Because it is a fact that Apple develops their own drivers. Also, when did you last download a driver update from NVidia for your Mac? https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/02/vulkan-is-coming-to-macos-ios-but-no-thanks-to-apple/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/02/vulkan-is-coming-to-... Article is about Vulkan, but briefly mention Apple's own outdated OpenGL stack. http://renderingpipeline.com/2012/04/sad-state-of-opengl-on-macos-x/ http://renderingpipeline.com/2012/04/sad-state-of-opengl-on-... From 2012. Which means it is still accurate, given how out of date drivers are. There are more references, you can look it up. > The real question is why would a GPU vendor go through the expense of creating and supporting such an implementation when Apple doesn't even make a computer with slots that you can install their video cards into? They still have GPUs, which can be Intel, AMD or NVidia depending on year and model. Just because they are soldered on, doesn't mean they don't need drivers. EDIT: Some more research seems to indicate that there are drivers developed by NVidia for the NVidia Quadro GPU line.
  - Firecracker 8y ago
    NVIDIA has mac drivers for their whole consumer line. For example https://images.nvidia.com/mac/pkg/387/WebDriver-387.10.10.10.25.161.pkg https://images.nvidia.com/mac/pkg/387/WebDriver-387.10.10.10...
    - outworlder 8y ago
      Good to know. It seems that they also provide updated CUDA drivers. It doesn't seem to change anything on the OpenGL stack, unfortunately.
      - GeekyBear 8y ago
        It just goes to show that NVidia thinks supporting CUDA everywhere is very much in their competitive interest, while creating and supporting an OpenGL implementation simply is not.
    - waynecochran 8y ago
      Yes. But tell me a Mac past 2015 that you can even use an nVidia card in.
      - sparky_ 8y ago
        They're doubling down on eGPU support, so there's that. But not as ideal as having something actually inside your machine.
      - Hamuko 8y ago
        Any Mac that can use an eGPU.
  - mbell 8y ago
    > Also, when did you last download a driver update from NVidia for your Mac? Last week. Nvidia releases drivers for cards that the drivers which ship with macos don't support. I would also guess that the nvidia drivers which ship with macos are written by nvidia under some agreement with apple, same is likely true of AMD and intel.
fulafel 8y ago
OpenGL is very much a second class citizen on Windows. Mass-market OpenGL apps like browsers currently use ANGLE to emulate OpenGL on top of D3D. Native OpenGL is used in professional apps that can make demands on GPU and driver setups. (Many toolkits, like Qt and Cocos2d, also use ANGLE on Windows for OpenGL functionality)
- sbuk 8y ago
  Pro 3D apps from Autodesk tend to use DirectX. Certainly 3dsmax and Revit use DirectX over OpenGL and have done for a while. The same is true for plenty of other “Pro” apps on Windows. https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/3ds-max/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2017/ENU/3DSMax/files/GUID-3D6B4C8E-8C0D-4A9C-BFB0-2463803268CE-htm.html https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/3ds-max/learn-explore...
- rockdoe 8y ago
  This is to a large extent because browsers can't make the same assumptions about reasonable graphics drivers being installed as games can.
pjmlp 8y ago
Only on desktop. In case you missed the news, only DirectX is supported on UWP and store apps. To the point that Microsoft has their own port of Angle. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/gaming/compare-opengl-es-2-0-api-design-to-directx https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/gaming/compare-... https://github.com/Microsoft/angle https://github.com/Microsoft/angle So unless they change their mind, say goodbye to ICD drivers on Windows as well.
- mrec 8y ago
  Is UWP/Store actually taking off? I was under the impression that it was another flop. I run Windows at home, but wouldn't if it went Store-only. For me, an open platform is the only thing Windows had going for it.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Yes, little by little. Quite a few apps like Adobe XD are store only. Next Office for Windows 10 is only available via the store. Microsoft has taken the other approach, if apps don't come to the store, the store comes to the apps. So thanks to the outcome of Project Centennial, they are now merging the UWP and Win32 worlds into Windows containers and making the store Win32 aware as well. https://bramwolfs.com/2018/03/13/msix-the-platform-for-all-windows-applications/ https://bramwolfs.com/2018/03/13/msix-the-platform-for-all-w... Deep down session from BUILD here, https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2018/BRK2432 https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2018/BRK2432

GeekyBear 8y ago

What makes you think that Apple refuses to allow GPU vendors to provide an OpenGL implementation? The real question is why would a GPU vendor go through the expense of creating and supporting such an implementation when Apple doesn't even make a computer with slots that you can install their video cards into? If producing an OpenGL implementation doesn't provide a competitive advantage for selling their products, why would they bother?

outworlder 8y ago
> What makes you think that Apple refuses to allow GPU vendors to provide an OpenGL implementation? Because it is a fact that Apple develops their own drivers. Also, when did you last download a driver update from NVidia for your Mac? https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/02/vulkan-is-coming-to-macos-ios-but-no-thanks-to-apple/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/02/vulkan-is-coming-to-... Article is about Vulkan, but briefly mention Apple's own outdated OpenGL stack. http://renderingpipeline.com/2012/04/sad-state-of-opengl-on-macos-x/ http://renderingpipeline.com/2012/04/sad-state-of-opengl-on-... From 2012. Which means it is still accurate, given how out of date drivers are. There are more references, you can look it up. > The real question is why would a GPU vendor go through the expense of creating and supporting such an implementation when Apple doesn't even make a computer with slots that you can install their video cards into? They still have GPUs, which can be Intel, AMD or NVidia depending on year and model. Just because they are soldered on, doesn't mean they don't need drivers. EDIT: Some more research seems to indicate that there are drivers developed by NVidia for the NVidia Quadro GPU line.
- Firecracker 8y ago
  NVIDIA has mac drivers for their whole consumer line. For example https://images.nvidia.com/mac/pkg/387/WebDriver-387.10.10.10.25.161.pkg https://images.nvidia.com/mac/pkg/387/WebDriver-387.10.10.10...
  - outworlder 8y ago
    Good to know. It seems that they also provide updated CUDA drivers. It doesn't seem to change anything on the OpenGL stack, unfortunately.
    - GeekyBear 8y ago
      It just goes to show that NVidia thinks supporting CUDA everywhere is very much in their competitive interest, while creating and supporting an OpenGL implementation simply is not.
  - waynecochran 8y ago
    Yes. But tell me a Mac past 2015 that you can even use an nVidia card in.
    - sparky_ 8y ago
      They're doubling down on eGPU support, so there's that. But not as ideal as having something actually inside your machine.
    - Hamuko 8y ago
      Any Mac that can use an eGPU.
- mbell 8y ago
  > Also, when did you last download a driver update from NVidia for your Mac? Last week. Nvidia releases drivers for cards that the drivers which ship with macos don't support. I would also guess that the nvidia drivers which ship with macos are written by nvidia under some agreement with apple, same is likely true of AMD and intel.

fulafel 8y ago

OpenGL is very much a second class citizen on Windows. Mass-market OpenGL apps like browsers currently use ANGLE to emulate OpenGL on top of D3D. Native OpenGL is used in professional apps that can make demands on GPU and driver setups. (Many toolkits, like Qt and Cocos2d, also use ANGLE on Windows for OpenGL functionality)

sbuk 8y ago
Pro 3D apps from Autodesk tend to use DirectX. Certainly 3dsmax and Revit use DirectX over OpenGL and have done for a while. The same is true for plenty of other “Pro” apps on Windows. https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/3ds-max/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2017/ENU/3DSMax/files/GUID-3D6B4C8E-8C0D-4A9C-BFB0-2463803268CE-htm.html https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/3ds-max/learn-explore...
rockdoe 8y ago
This is to a large extent because browsers can't make the same assumptions about reasonable graphics drivers being installed as games can.

pjmlp 8y ago

Only on desktop. In case you missed the news, only DirectX is supported on UWP and store apps. To the point that Microsoft has their own port of Angle. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/gaming/compare-opengl-es-2-0-api-design-to-directx https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/gaming/compare-... https://github.com/Microsoft/angle https://github.com/Microsoft/angle So unless they change their mind, say goodbye to ICD drivers on Windows as well.

mrec 8y ago
Is UWP/Store actually taking off? I was under the impression that it was another flop. I run Windows at home, but wouldn't if it went Store-only. For me, an open platform is the only thing Windows had going for it.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Yes, little by little. Quite a few apps like Adobe XD are store only. Next Office for Windows 10 is only available via the store. Microsoft has taken the other approach, if apps don't come to the store, the store comes to the apps. So thanks to the outcome of Project Centennial, they are now merging the UWP and Win32 worlds into Windows containers and making the store Win32 aware as well. https://bramwolfs.com/2018/03/13/msix-the-platform-for-all-windows-applications/ https://bramwolfs.com/2018/03/13/msix-the-platform-for-all-w... Deep down session from BUILD here, https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2018/BRK2432 https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2018/BRK2432