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There is at least a dense 50 years of research and writing on the topic of scientific ethics, it's a bit naive to pop into a thread and ask, "so what's the deee

There is at least a dense 50 years of research and writing on the topic of scientific ethics, it's a bit naive to pop into a thread and ask, "so what's the deeeeaaaal with human experimentation?"

smallnamespace 8y ago
To be clear, I think the question is where the line is between 'experimentation' and 'just doing what people do normally'. Concrete example: I am in the process of trying to hire people right now. I'm not sure what the exact best way to do that is, so I vary how I interview over time and see how well it seems to work. I record what happens in a spreadsheet, and then later on I look at the 'data' to make some judgments. Am I experimenting on my interviewees? Am I potentially harming them? Well certainly if I ask question A in one interview, and question A' in another, and question A' is harder and I don't pass that person, then one might be tempted to argue that maybe that person would've done better on question A; therefore, I've harmed someone by 'experimenting' and making it harder for them to get a job. Rejecting someone can certainly make them depressed. In principle this is no different from A/B testing an interview process, using real live humans no less. So do I personally have an ethical obligation to disclose to everyone I interview that I am conducting human experimentation on them? Or is the only difference in power and scale—I am just one person, but Facebook can A/B test on millions of people at once?
- secabeen 8y ago
  > Well certainly if I ask question A in one interview, and question A' in another, and question A' is harder and I don't pass that person, then one might be tempted to argue that maybe that person would've done better on question A; therefore, I've harmed someone by 'experimenting' and making it harder for them to get a job. Rejecting someone can certainly make them depressed. > In principle this is no different from A/B testing an interview process, using real live humans no less. > So do I personally have an ethical obligation to disclose to everyone I interview that I am conducting human experimentation on them? Or is the only difference in power and scale—I am just one person, but Facebook can A/B test on millions of people at once? Generally, when interviewing, we ask the same questions of each applicant. We adjust the questions from A to A' as positions are hired, and pools are assembled, but for a specific job, each candidate gets the same questions. It would have to be different for open recruitment not tied to a specific job, but I haven't had to do that.
killjoywashere 8y ago
There is plenty of gray area in human protections law. Source: I'm a researcher who spent most of last week dealing with lawyers in multiple time zones on exactly how to write a bit of protocol in order to preserve the grey area (so as to avoid setting unnecessary precedent), while honoring the more stringent interpretation (to avoid even the appearance of skating onto thin ice). Four years ago, having talked to some of the same lawyers about the same topic, none of us had any thought that it was a grey area. An a priori interpretation of the law was pretty clear: a more liberal position was (and is) perfectly legal. But the most anxious minds tend to prevail in these matters.
- specialist 8y ago
  I enthusiastically support requiring Facebook to have an IRB greenlight any user impacting changes they want to make. That's a terrific idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_review_board https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_review_board
- rhizome 8y ago
  There is plenty of gray area in human protections law. Of course, which is why the conversation continues. If it was settled at the beginning without nuance, it would be defined in black and white. I'm not sure how your reply relates, though, since I was merely imploring GP to demonstrate any awareness of the state of research rather than jumping in with a lazy question-comment. Elsewhere this is expressed by the slogan, "I'm 12 years old and what is this?"

There is at least a dense 50 years of research and writing on the topic of scientific ethics, it's a bit naive to pop into a thread and ask, "so what's the deeeeaaaal with human experimentation?"

smallnamespace 8y ago

To be clear, I think the question is where the line is between 'experimentation' and 'just doing what people do normally'. Concrete example: I am in the process of trying to hire people right now. I'm not sure what the exact best way to do that is, so I vary how I interview over time and see how well it seems to work. I record what happens in a spreadsheet, and then later on I look at the 'data' to make some judgments. Am I experimenting on my interviewees? Am I potentially harming them? Well certainly if I ask question A in one interview, and question A' in another, and question A' is harder and I don't pass that person, then one might be tempted to argue that maybe that person would've done better on question A; therefore, I've harmed someone by 'experimenting' and making it harder for them to get a job. Rejecting someone can certainly make them depressed. In principle this is no different from A/B testing an interview process, using real live humans no less. So do I personally have an ethical obligation to disclose to everyone I interview that I am conducting human experimentation on them? Or is the only difference in power and scale—I am just one person, but Facebook can A/B test on millions of people at once?

secabeen 8y ago
> Well certainly if I ask question A in one interview, and question A' in another, and question A' is harder and I don't pass that person, then one might be tempted to argue that maybe that person would've done better on question A; therefore, I've harmed someone by 'experimenting' and making it harder for them to get a job. Rejecting someone can certainly make them depressed. > In principle this is no different from A/B testing an interview process, using real live humans no less. > So do I personally have an ethical obligation to disclose to everyone I interview that I am conducting human experimentation on them? Or is the only difference in power and scale—I am just one person, but Facebook can A/B test on millions of people at once? Generally, when interviewing, we ask the same questions of each applicant. We adjust the questions from A to A' as positions are hired, and pools are assembled, but for a specific job, each candidate gets the same questions. It would have to be different for open recruitment not tied to a specific job, but I haven't had to do that.

killjoywashere 8y ago

There is plenty of gray area in human protections law. Source: I'm a researcher who spent most of last week dealing with lawyers in multiple time zones on exactly how to write a bit of protocol in order to preserve the grey area (so as to avoid setting unnecessary precedent), while honoring the more stringent interpretation (to avoid even the appearance of skating onto thin ice). Four years ago, having talked to some of the same lawyers about the same topic, none of us had any thought that it was a grey area. An a priori interpretation of the law was pretty clear: a more liberal position was (and is) perfectly legal. But the most anxious minds tend to prevail in these matters.

specialist 8y ago
I enthusiastically support requiring Facebook to have an IRB greenlight any user impacting changes they want to make. That's a terrific idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_review_board https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_review_board
rhizome 8y ago
There is plenty of gray area in human protections law. Of course, which is why the conversation continues. If it was settled at the beginning without nuance, it would be defined in black and white. I'm not sure how your reply relates, though, since I was merely imploring GP to demonstrate any awareness of the state of research rather than jumping in with a lazy question-comment. Elsewhere this is expressed by the slogan, "I'm 12 years old and what is this?"