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I think this is key. A lot of people got completely trumped on the supposedly low-price of 35k$. This is where the magical Charisma of Musk played so well. At

I think this is key. A lot of people got completely trumped on the supposedly low-price of 35k$. This is where the magical Charisma of Musk played so well. At the end of the day, it is closer to a 60k$ car than a 35k$ car (not even accounting for tax-money helping people to buy it cheaper). And if you really think about it, I cannot see how you can justify the model3 being worth 60k$ ! you got sold on a 35k$ car, and before you know it, you spend 60k$

acchow 8y ago
Do you mean because Tesla isn't yet building the base models?
- ironjunkie 8y ago
  because the car will be so bare down at the sticker price of 35k$ that most people will take some of the upgrades (for things you would expect out of the box for other cars at that price tag). https://mashable.com/2017/08/01/tesla-model-3-true-cost-more-than-35000/#WKzyHnlBjsqO https://mashable.com/2017/08/01/tesla-model-3-true-cost-more...
  - usaphp 8y ago
    But it’s the same for all other cars. If you look at a base Audi or bmw, they are also pretty empty for their starting price
    - johncarterjohn 8y ago
      There aren't any mainstream cars that base at $35K and option for $30K higher. Name a make and model.
      - Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
        Nissan GT-R. Base is $99,990. Premium edition is $110,490. Track Edition is $128,490. Finally, there's NISMO edition, $175,490. With all the options, nearly $183,000. https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/sports-cars/gt-r/build-price.html#configure/A/version https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/sports-cars/gt-r/build-pr... EDIT: Of course, a Nissan GT-R isn't even the same market as a Model 3, so I'm not sure you could really use it as an example.
      - 013a 8y ago
        There are many. It comes down to what you define as an option, but if we use Tesla's definition as "the same model": - Camaro. Base: $27k. Fully loaded: Above $70k. Of course, this is mainly because it goes from a 2.0L turbo 4 to a 6.2L turbo V8, but then again, a motor upgrade is also available as an "option" on the Model 3 so... Its the same model, same platform. - Mercedes C300. Base: $40k. Fully Loaded: Above $70k. No engine or platform changes, exact same trim level, just options; exterior trim, premium leather, sound system, tech, etc. - BMW 3-Series. Base: $35k. Fully Loaded: $65k. Both an engine and drivetrain upgrade included. - Ford Mustang GT. Base: $35k. Fully Loaded: $55k. Not as drastic, but significant because again no engine change; Ford sells both a premium "trim", a complete interior upgrade, and a performance pack that modifies things like the diff ratio, bodywork, etc.
        johncarterjohn 8y ago
        Yeah that is not the same as a Model 3 comparison. With the Model 3 you were led to believe a $35K car existed, but it never did. A C300 4 banger will be not be confused with a AMG C63s before ordering.
        013a 8y ago
        The C300 in that example is not a C63s. Its a C300 completely optioned out. Same model. Same engine. Most of the cost comes in exterior options (which are often borrowed from the AMG models), interior comfort (ultra quality leather seats), and tech (premium speakers, some form of autonomous driving). And that's just what is on their website. Especially with BMW, you can go wild at the dealers with customization. You can turn a $40k car into a $100k car easily, just with factory options.
        johncarterjohn 8y ago
        Again, no. Just because you can dump a bunch of roof accessories and floor mats into a C300 doesn't qualify it for a $30K increase that you are mislead to believe. Also, I don't know if you've ever bought a car, but you just can't add all the options up on a car's build page and obtain the highest possible price. Many of those options are redundant and cancel each other out when you run down the line and click on them (packages). What's your $100K C300 build link? You have to be very naive to think that even a $40K BASE model car options to a hundred grand "easily". Remember, we're discussing the lie that the Model 3 is. That it's a $35K vehicle that will ship mid to late 2017.
      - AtlasBarfed 8y ago
        - BMW 3-series vs a fully loaded M3 is like 35K to almost 90K - Audi A4 vs S4 can be 30K added - probably any base luxury model has a huge sport upgrade path. The GT-R used to be a Nissan Skyline upgrade.
      - URSpider94 8y ago
        Challenge accepted. BMW 320i base is $34k. BMW 340i xDrive with all the trimmings is a hair over $60k.
  - acchow 8y ago
    How bare down? Is a base Model 3 much more bare than a 320i? How about each with $5k in upgrades? 10k?
cptskippy 8y ago
> And if you really think about it, I cannot see how you can justify the model3 being worth 60k$ ! I agree with everything you said but that statement. What in your opinion constitutes a 60k car? I am always amazed by luxury cars whenever I ride in them, not by how nice they are, but by how they're just tacky "luxurious" material cladding slapped on a cheaper car. Lincoln, Cadillac, Lexus, Acura, and Chrysler cars are just Ford, Chevy, Toyota, Honda, and Dodge cars covered in tacky leather and lick&stick wood paneling costing 30k more.
- symlinkk 8y ago
  You’re forgetting about performance. Cadillac and Lexus are usually rear wheel drive or all wheel drive and quite a bit faster than their non-luxury counterparts. And all of them have more technology than the non-luxury brands.
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    The power train and drive train can be different as you pointed out, and sometimes they're not. One of the upgrades for the Model 3 is to the power train and drive train as well. As for technology, eh... maybe. Safety features like airbags, backup cameras, ESC and anti-lock brakes are now mandatory on most smaller cars. Lane departure, dynamic cruise, blind spot detection, and huds are becoming standard features on most mid sized cars. Newer features like Super Cruise are optional just like Auto Pilot in the Model 3. I don't think the entertainment or nav packages in any car are worth it. I would actually consider paying extra for them to remove it and instead put a shelf for my phone with a USB port.
- stephengillie 8y ago
  For comparison, I was considering a Model 3 last summer. I had an old small truck that had broken down and was renting an Altima. I couldn't wait for the Model 3 reservation, so I got a certified pre-owned Camry Hybrid. It included a 7 year warranty and 8 year battery warranty, and I added an additional maintenance warranty. I had chosen an XLE, with all of the features I wanted and many more. I drove the car home that day, and paid $3000 less than the theoretical base Model 3 would cost. The car gets 30-45 MPG consistently, so uses about twice the energy of a Model 3, and is limited to more expensive but more ubiquitous gasoline for fuel. But this is also okay as I'm in an apartment and have no charger at work. I think some forget that the competition for the Model 3 is wider than just EVs. Lower fuel and maintenance costs are only worth so much.
mcot2 8y ago
There will be the standard range battery model released later this year with a $35,000 price tag. In the U.S. after the $7,500 federal tax credit, the final price should be well below $30,000. Tesla is focusing on producing the higher priced versions first in order to have the cash flow to produce the standard model. If Tesla wanted to start with producing the standard model first, they probably would have needed a very large cash infusion with unfavorable terms. There are definitely conflicting opinions on this but they have chosen a slightly more conservative route in order to not put the business at risk. The end result is we have to wait a bit longer for the standard model, and as such some people may feel obliged to cancel their order, or even be upsold to a more expensive model 3 or even an S/X.
- bronson 8y ago
  Do you think the tax credit will still be around by the time Tesla ships a $35000 model 3? That's going to be a narrow buying window!
  - mcot2 8y ago
    Probably not the full credit, unless you have a spot in line already. The phase out starts during the quarter when the company hits 200,000 total deliveries. If we assume this is going to be July 1st, then the $7,500 credit is good for Q3 and Q4. This takes us to December 31st. At this point, the credit is reduced to $3,750 for 6 months and then to $1,875 for 6 months. Using a lot of speculation and extrapolation, I would estimate that if someone placed an order now and wanted a standard model they would still probably be able to hit either the $3,750 or $1,875 credits.
    - greglindahl 8y ago
      It's worth noting that the sense of a lot of media is that Congress is going to remove the cap before GM hits it, which is not so different from when Tesla is going to hit it. And before you think it's a partisan thing, there is significant quiet Republican support for the credit.
asdignoio 8y ago
>not even accounting for tax-money helping people to buy it cheaper Not accounting for the investors subsidizing it, either! Is the Model 3 sold at a loss? I'm pretty sure the Model S was, but haven't heard anything definitive about the 3. Except for Elon Musk's comments, which I don't trust for a second.
manicdee 8y ago
If you looked at the price range of the Model S, then interpolated for the base Model 3 price, it's not hard to imagine the price of the configuration that you would be buying. Without going to the P model, the price of a Model S goes up 50% just with options. Extrapolating for the Model 3, base price of $35k means you are looking at $50k without a performance model, just with some options added. If those numbers are painful, you really shouldn't be in the market formthis car in the first place. If a car costs more than ⅓ your annual income, you probably shouldn't be buying it.

acchow 8y ago

Do you mean because Tesla isn't yet building the base models?

ironjunkie 8y ago
because the car will be so bare down at the sticker price of 35k$ that most people will take some of the upgrades (for things you would expect out of the box for other cars at that price tag). https://mashable.com/2017/08/01/tesla-model-3-true-cost-more-than-35000/#WKzyHnlBjsqO https://mashable.com/2017/08/01/tesla-model-3-true-cost-more...
- usaphp 8y ago
  But it’s the same for all other cars. If you look at a base Audi or bmw, they are also pretty empty for their starting price
  - johncarterjohn 8y ago
    There aren't any mainstream cars that base at $35K and option for $30K higher. Name a make and model.
    - Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
      Nissan GT-R. Base is $99,990. Premium edition is $110,490. Track Edition is $128,490. Finally, there's NISMO edition, $175,490. With all the options, nearly $183,000. https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/sports-cars/gt-r/build-price.html#configure/A/version https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/sports-cars/gt-r/build-pr... EDIT: Of course, a Nissan GT-R isn't even the same market as a Model 3, so I'm not sure you could really use it as an example.
    - 013a 8y ago
      There are many. It comes down to what you define as an option, but if we use Tesla's definition as "the same model": - Camaro. Base: $27k. Fully loaded: Above $70k. Of course, this is mainly because it goes from a 2.0L turbo 4 to a 6.2L turbo V8, but then again, a motor upgrade is also available as an "option" on the Model 3 so... Its the same model, same platform. - Mercedes C300. Base: $40k. Fully Loaded: Above $70k. No engine or platform changes, exact same trim level, just options; exterior trim, premium leather, sound system, tech, etc. - BMW 3-Series. Base: $35k. Fully Loaded: $65k. Both an engine and drivetrain upgrade included. - Ford Mustang GT. Base: $35k. Fully Loaded: $55k. Not as drastic, but significant because again no engine change; Ford sells both a premium "trim", a complete interior upgrade, and a performance pack that modifies things like the diff ratio, bodywork, etc.
      - johncarterjohn 8y ago
        Yeah that is not the same as a Model 3 comparison. With the Model 3 you were led to believe a $35K car existed, but it never did. A C300 4 banger will be not be confused with a AMG C63s before ordering.
        013a 8y ago
        The C300 in that example is not a C63s. Its a C300 completely optioned out. Same model. Same engine. Most of the cost comes in exterior options (which are often borrowed from the AMG models), interior comfort (ultra quality leather seats), and tech (premium speakers, some form of autonomous driving). And that's just what is on their website. Especially with BMW, you can go wild at the dealers with customization. You can turn a $40k car into a $100k car easily, just with factory options.
        johncarterjohn 8y ago
        Again, no. Just because you can dump a bunch of roof accessories and floor mats into a C300 doesn't qualify it for a $30K increase that you are mislead to believe. Also, I don't know if you've ever bought a car, but you just can't add all the options up on a car's build page and obtain the highest possible price. Many of those options are redundant and cancel each other out when you run down the line and click on them (packages). What's your $100K C300 build link? You have to be very naive to think that even a $40K BASE model car options to a hundred grand "easily". Remember, we're discussing the lie that the Model 3 is. That it's a $35K vehicle that will ship mid to late 2017.
    - AtlasBarfed 8y ago
      - BMW 3-series vs a fully loaded M3 is like 35K to almost 90K - Audi A4 vs S4 can be 30K added - probably any base luxury model has a huge sport upgrade path. The GT-R used to be a Nissan Skyline upgrade.
    - URSpider94 8y ago
      Challenge accepted. BMW 320i base is $34k. BMW 340i xDrive with all the trimmings is a hair over $60k.
- acchow 8y ago
  How bare down? Is a base Model 3 much more bare than a 320i? How about each with $5k in upgrades? 10k?

cptskippy 8y ago

> And if you really think about it, I cannot see how you can justify the model3 being worth 60k$ ! I agree with everything you said but that statement. What in your opinion constitutes a 60k car? I am always amazed by luxury cars whenever I ride in them, not by how nice they are, but by how they're just tacky "luxurious" material cladding slapped on a cheaper car. Lincoln, Cadillac, Lexus, Acura, and Chrysler cars are just Ford, Chevy, Toyota, Honda, and Dodge cars covered in tacky leather and lick&stick wood paneling costing 30k more.

symlinkk 8y ago
You’re forgetting about performance. Cadillac and Lexus are usually rear wheel drive or all wheel drive and quite a bit faster than their non-luxury counterparts. And all of them have more technology than the non-luxury brands.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  The power train and drive train can be different as you pointed out, and sometimes they're not. One of the upgrades for the Model 3 is to the power train and drive train as well. As for technology, eh... maybe. Safety features like airbags, backup cameras, ESC and anti-lock brakes are now mandatory on most smaller cars. Lane departure, dynamic cruise, blind spot detection, and huds are becoming standard features on most mid sized cars. Newer features like Super Cruise are optional just like Auto Pilot in the Model 3. I don't think the entertainment or nav packages in any car are worth it. I would actually consider paying extra for them to remove it and instead put a shelf for my phone with a USB port.
stephengillie 8y ago
For comparison, I was considering a Model 3 last summer. I had an old small truck that had broken down and was renting an Altima. I couldn't wait for the Model 3 reservation, so I got a certified pre-owned Camry Hybrid. It included a 7 year warranty and 8 year battery warranty, and I added an additional maintenance warranty. I had chosen an XLE, with all of the features I wanted and many more. I drove the car home that day, and paid $3000 less than the theoretical base Model 3 would cost. The car gets 30-45 MPG consistently, so uses about twice the energy of a Model 3, and is limited to more expensive but more ubiquitous gasoline for fuel. But this is also okay as I'm in an apartment and have no charger at work. I think some forget that the competition for the Model 3 is wider than just EVs. Lower fuel and maintenance costs are only worth so much.

mcot2 8y ago

There will be the standard range battery model released later this year with a $35,000 price tag. In the U.S. after the $7,500 federal tax credit, the final price should be well below $30,000. Tesla is focusing on producing the higher priced versions first in order to have the cash flow to produce the standard model. If Tesla wanted to start with producing the standard model first, they probably would have needed a very large cash infusion with unfavorable terms. There are definitely conflicting opinions on this but they have chosen a slightly more conservative route in order to not put the business at risk. The end result is we have to wait a bit longer for the standard model, and as such some people may feel obliged to cancel their order, or even be upsold to a more expensive model 3 or even an S/X.

bronson 8y ago
Do you think the tax credit will still be around by the time Tesla ships a $35000 model 3? That's going to be a narrow buying window!
- mcot2 8y ago
  Probably not the full credit, unless you have a spot in line already. The phase out starts during the quarter when the company hits 200,000 total deliveries. If we assume this is going to be July 1st, then the $7,500 credit is good for Q3 and Q4. This takes us to December 31st. At this point, the credit is reduced to $3,750 for 6 months and then to $1,875 for 6 months. Using a lot of speculation and extrapolation, I would estimate that if someone placed an order now and wanted a standard model they would still probably be able to hit either the $3,750 or $1,875 credits.
  - greglindahl 8y ago
    It's worth noting that the sense of a lot of media is that Congress is going to remove the cap before GM hits it, which is not so different from when Tesla is going to hit it. And before you think it's a partisan thing, there is significant quiet Republican support for the credit.

asdignoio 8y ago

>not even accounting for tax-money helping people to buy it cheaper Not accounting for the investors subsidizing it, either! Is the Model 3 sold at a loss? I'm pretty sure the Model S was, but haven't heard anything definitive about the 3. Except for Elon Musk's comments, which I don't trust for a second.

manicdee 8y ago

If you looked at the price range of the Model S, then interpolated for the base Model 3 price, it's not hard to imagine the price of the configuration that you would be buying. Without going to the P model, the price of a Model S goes up 50% just with options. Extrapolating for the Model 3, base price of $35k means you are looking at $50k without a performance model, just with some options added. If those numbers are painful, you really shouldn't be in the market formthis car in the first place. If a car costs more than ⅓ your annual income, you probably shouldn't be buying it.