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> For most people emojis (and animojis) have opened a whole new way to communicate with each other Wow that is an extremely generous characterization. At best

> For most people emojis (and animojis) have opened a whole new way to communicate with each other Wow that is an extremely generous characterization. At best they're just prettier versions of :) and :( and I don't see how they allow people to convey ideas they couldn't do just as well via text.

rainbowmverse 8y ago
If you haven't seen how emojis are used in the wild to enhance communication, it's probably not for you.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  You didn't read. I said that you can convey any of these equally well in ascii. Yes, it's handy to be able to plug an :) at the end of a sentence which may otherwise sound rude/overly direct. That doesn't mean I need 1000 icons, and _that's what we're talking about_.
  - rainbowmverse 8y ago
    I read the whole thing. The emojis serve a purpose. Text doesn't serve that purpose. I don't know how to describe the niche they fill with text. They're not a stand-in for emoticons. You don't get it. It's okay. Not everything is for you.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      > I don't know how to describe the niche they fill with text. Consider the possibility that this is because there isn't one.
      - rainbowmverse 8y ago
        HN doesn't support emoji, so here's an example: https://cybre.space/@Riley/100149464360818801 https://cybre.space/@Riley/100149464360818801 The meaning is immediately clear to anyone familiar with the reference. It's basically a pictographic language that leans heavily on a shared culture that's largely internet-based.
        AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
        Ah, I get it, it's value is making the people use it feel special because only "the right kind of people" will get their jokes. Just a new generation of children using slang. Why was that so difficult to use words to describe?
        rainbowmverse 8y ago
        >> "Ah, I get it, it's value is making the people use it feel special because only "the right kind of people" will get their jokes. Just a new generation of children using slang." You sure do have some text there. >> "Why was that so difficult to use words to describe?" The medium is the message.
        EpicEng 8y ago
        Oh, so inside jokes. Yeah that's totally new and groundbreaking.
        zimpenfish 8y ago
        Do you similarly disdain things like Cockney Rhyming Slang and Polari because they're effectively "inside jokes" that express things you could equally well express with "plain words"?
    - EpicEng 8y ago
      >I don't know how to describe the niche they fill with text. They're not a stand-in for emoticons. So you can't explain it, but it's I who "doesn't get it". Ok then. I'll excuse you for a bit as it's going to take some time to untwist your brain from that logical contortion.
Spivak 8y ago
They don't really convey ideas, they convey emotions and reactions. It pretty much solves the "tone is hard to convey over text problem."
- therein 8y ago
  How did they do that beyond `:)` or `xD` or `-.-` does?
  - BookmarkSaver 8y ago
    I feel like you and others are being purposefully obtuse, to some degree. Can you seriously not distinguish between the tiny selection and low res quality of text faces, and the wide variety of highly specific and detailed set of reactions now available to us? There's only so much you can do with text before you have to be extremely creative (a level of effort excessive for quick casual conversations) or rely on the other party being familiar with your specific vocabulary of text-faces.
    - EpicEng 8y ago
      >Can you seriously not distinguish between the tiny selection and low res quality of text faces, and the wide variety of highly specific and detailed set of reactions now available to us? There's only so much you can do with text before you have to be extremely creative (a level of effort excessive for quick casual conversations) or rely on the other party being familiar with your specific vocabulary of text-face Then give us a single example! So many replies _and not a single example of where words or ascii fail to impart what only an emoji can_. You can say "they're obviously better" until you're blue in the face, but it's all hot air until you prove it.
      - pdpi 8y ago
        Not the OP but here’s one. I recently got divorced and back into dating. These days, that means a lot of texting in some form, and I’ve found I have a distinctive style that people who know me well enjoy but that tends to produce a lot of misunderstandings with people That don’t know me that well. I have the choice of either adjusting my writing style to new people, which I’d rather not, or use either text or picture emoji to convey the tone that makes my writing clearer to people who can’t infer it. I find that image-based emoji are much more specific in the mood they convey, and provide more range — and there is a definite difference in how clearly I come across.
macintux 8y ago
What’s the text version of a birthday cake? More challenging: what’s the text version of a singing, eye-rolling T-Rex? It’s fine to not care about emoji, but you can’t logically dismiss them as prettier smilies.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  > What’s the text version of a birthday cake? "Happy birthday!" > More challenging: what’s the text version of a singing, eye-rolling T-Rex? Ok, you got me there, because I have no idea what concept is even meant to be communicated by such an absurd thing.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > I have no idea what concept is even meant to be communicated by such an absurd thing Depends on context. If we were discussing someone, it might signal criticism or a desire to party. The fact that it cannot compress losslessly into words is the whole point.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      If it is contextual and subjective, then we could just use any word or phrase in the same manner to the same effect. Written language itself is just contextual line patterns.
      - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
        > we could just use any word or phrase in the same manner to the same effect. Written language itself is just contextual line patterns No, we can't. There is an inherent visual component to emojis. A picture worth a thousand words, et cetera. It's not an abstract idea mapping to an arbitrary icon; without prior explanation, many emojis make sense (within a certain cultural context). Kind of like how we can't replace the essence of giving a friend a gift or a lover a flower with words or an arbitrary icon. Apple understands this in a way few technology companies do.
paulcole 8y ago
Yeah I agree. Why would anyone prefer something that looked nicer than an old thing? Has anything like this phenomenon ever been observed in the past?
- mcphage 8y ago
  “I had fun once. It was awful.” — one of Kate Beaton’s characters.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  Ok well here's what I actually said. It's right up there if you want to take another look. > At best they're just prettier versions of :) and :( and I don't see how they allow people to convey ideas they couldn't do just as well via text. Never did I say "These are dumb get off my lawn!" I said they don't meaningfully impact or improve communication, which is in direct response to the person I replied to who said that they have "opened a whole new way to communicate." That's a serious claim, I'd like to see a single coherent argument to show it's actually the case. But, no, all I get are mischaracterizations of what I said. The debate is not "are pretty things nice", it's "have emoji's fundamentally improved communication".
  - paulcole 8y ago
    > The debate is not "are pretty things nice" If the debate is not about how something looks then why was your first instinct to dismiss them as “just prettier versions of :) and :(“?
    - EpicEng 8y ago
      >If the debate is not about how something looks then why was your first instinct to dismiss them as “just prettier versions of :) and :(“? ...because I was responding to someone who said emojis were a new and previously unrealized form of communication! Seriously guys... You know, you're right; I find myself reaching for a "smashes head against brick wall" emoji right about now. Oh, damn; I just described that emotion with words. I guess I'm still right.
mlindner 8y ago
I assume you don't know any people born in the last 15 years or so. Emoji communication (using just emojis) is quite common, often several in a row.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  I feel like I'm in the Twilight zone (and no, I don't hang out with a lot of 12 year olds, but I do in fact know that kids like to pepper near everything they write with dumb icons.) The debate is not "are emojis widely used". Yes, of course they are. The question is "opened a whole new way to communicate with each other", which is what I responded to. I say, no, they haven't. I can convey the same emotions with ascii. I can convey the same emotions with written text. If you want to prove me wrong then fine, but don't re-frame the discussion.
  - mlindner 8y ago
    The most common emoji I see among kids is (Face With Tears of Joy) or (OK Hand) (apparently ycombinator doesn't support UTF-8). I don't know of any ascii that can do those. (FYI, I'm 28 and I often chat with my younger cousins who are in their mid-teens at the moment.)
lolsal 8y ago
> At best they're just prettier versions of :) and :( Do you really think this? I don't really 'get' emojis but I think you're woefully underestimating their impact on communication and language. The emoji library on a normal iPhone is enormous.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  >Do you really think this? ...yes? >you're woefully underestimating their impact on communication and language. The emoji library on a normal iPhone is enormous What does one have to do with the other? Yes, there are a lot of dumb icons to chose from. How does that directly lead to "[having a] large impact on communication and language"? If that's true, do you think it's a _positive_ impact?
  - blt 8y ago
    Have you ever encountered difficulty conveying or understanding conversational tone over the internet? No? You are lying or lack self-awareness. Voice and body language are important for disambiguating sentences with more than one possible meaning or implication. Emojis approximate the role of voice tone and body language in digital text-based communication.
    - EpicEng 8y ago
      The discussion is not "are emojis in any form useful?", it's "do icons provide a new and before unrealized form of communication". Literally every person here missed the statement in the first comment.

rainbowmverse 8y ago

If you haven't seen how emojis are used in the wild to enhance communication, it's probably not for you.

EpicEng 8y ago
You didn't read. I said that you can convey any of these equally well in ascii. Yes, it's handy to be able to plug an :) at the end of a sentence which may otherwise sound rude/overly direct. That doesn't mean I need 1000 icons, and _that's what we're talking about_.
- rainbowmverse 8y ago
  I read the whole thing. The emojis serve a purpose. Text doesn't serve that purpose. I don't know how to describe the niche they fill with text. They're not a stand-in for emoticons. You don't get it. It's okay. Not everything is for you.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    > I don't know how to describe the niche they fill with text. Consider the possibility that this is because there isn't one.
    - rainbowmverse 8y ago
      HN doesn't support emoji, so here's an example: https://cybre.space/@Riley/100149464360818801 https://cybre.space/@Riley/100149464360818801 The meaning is immediately clear to anyone familiar with the reference. It's basically a pictographic language that leans heavily on a shared culture that's largely internet-based.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
        Ah, I get it, it's value is making the people use it feel special because only "the right kind of people" will get their jokes. Just a new generation of children using slang. Why was that so difficult to use words to describe?
        rainbowmverse 8y ago
        >> "Ah, I get it, it's value is making the people use it feel special because only "the right kind of people" will get their jokes. Just a new generation of children using slang." You sure do have some text there. >> "Why was that so difficult to use words to describe?" The medium is the message.
      - EpicEng 8y ago
        Oh, so inside jokes. Yeah that's totally new and groundbreaking.
        zimpenfish 8y ago
        Do you similarly disdain things like Cockney Rhyming Slang and Polari because they're effectively "inside jokes" that express things you could equally well express with "plain words"?
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    >I don't know how to describe the niche they fill with text. They're not a stand-in for emoticons. So you can't explain it, but it's I who "doesn't get it". Ok then. I'll excuse you for a bit as it's going to take some time to untwist your brain from that logical contortion.

Spivak 8y ago

They don't really convey ideas, they convey emotions and reactions. It pretty much solves the "tone is hard to convey over text problem."

therein 8y ago
How did they do that beyond `:)` or `xD` or `-.-` does?
- BookmarkSaver 8y ago
  I feel like you and others are being purposefully obtuse, to some degree. Can you seriously not distinguish between the tiny selection and low res quality of text faces, and the wide variety of highly specific and detailed set of reactions now available to us? There's only so much you can do with text before you have to be extremely creative (a level of effort excessive for quick casual conversations) or rely on the other party being familiar with your specific vocabulary of text-faces.
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    >Can you seriously not distinguish between the tiny selection and low res quality of text faces, and the wide variety of highly specific and detailed set of reactions now available to us? There's only so much you can do with text before you have to be extremely creative (a level of effort excessive for quick casual conversations) or rely on the other party being familiar with your specific vocabulary of text-face Then give us a single example! So many replies _and not a single example of where words or ascii fail to impart what only an emoji can_. You can say "they're obviously better" until you're blue in the face, but it's all hot air until you prove it.
    - pdpi 8y ago
      Not the OP but here’s one. I recently got divorced and back into dating. These days, that means a lot of texting in some form, and I’ve found I have a distinctive style that people who know me well enjoy but that tends to produce a lot of misunderstandings with people That don’t know me that well. I have the choice of either adjusting my writing style to new people, which I’d rather not, or use either text or picture emoji to convey the tone that makes my writing clearer to people who can’t infer it. I find that image-based emoji are much more specific in the mood they convey, and provide more range — and there is a definite difference in how clearly I come across.

macintux 8y ago

What’s the text version of a birthday cake? More challenging: what’s the text version of a singing, eye-rolling T-Rex? It’s fine to not care about emoji, but you can’t logically dismiss them as prettier smilies.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
> What’s the text version of a birthday cake? "Happy birthday!" > More challenging: what’s the text version of a singing, eye-rolling T-Rex? Ok, you got me there, because I have no idea what concept is even meant to be communicated by such an absurd thing.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > I have no idea what concept is even meant to be communicated by such an absurd thing Depends on context. If we were discussing someone, it might signal criticism or a desire to party. The fact that it cannot compress losslessly into words is the whole point.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    If it is contextual and subjective, then we could just use any word or phrase in the same manner to the same effect. Written language itself is just contextual line patterns.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > we could just use any word or phrase in the same manner to the same effect. Written language itself is just contextual line patterns No, we can't. There is an inherent visual component to emojis. A picture worth a thousand words, et cetera. It's not an abstract idea mapping to an arbitrary icon; without prior explanation, many emojis make sense (within a certain cultural context). Kind of like how we can't replace the essence of giving a friend a gift or a lover a flower with words or an arbitrary icon. Apple understands this in a way few technology companies do.

paulcole 8y ago

Yeah I agree. Why would anyone prefer something that looked nicer than an old thing? Has anything like this phenomenon ever been observed in the past?

mcphage 8y ago
“I had fun once. It was awful.” — one of Kate Beaton’s characters.
EpicEng 8y ago
Ok well here's what I actually said. It's right up there if you want to take another look. > At best they're just prettier versions of :) and :( and I don't see how they allow people to convey ideas they couldn't do just as well via text. Never did I say "These are dumb get off my lawn!" I said they don't meaningfully impact or improve communication, which is in direct response to the person I replied to who said that they have "opened a whole new way to communicate." That's a serious claim, I'd like to see a single coherent argument to show it's actually the case. But, no, all I get are mischaracterizations of what I said. The debate is not "are pretty things nice", it's "have emoji's fundamentally improved communication".
- paulcole 8y ago
  > The debate is not "are pretty things nice" If the debate is not about how something looks then why was your first instinct to dismiss them as “just prettier versions of :) and :(“?
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    >If the debate is not about how something looks then why was your first instinct to dismiss them as “just prettier versions of :) and :(“? ...because I was responding to someone who said emojis were a new and previously unrealized form of communication! Seriously guys... You know, you're right; I find myself reaching for a "smashes head against brick wall" emoji right about now. Oh, damn; I just described that emotion with words. I guess I'm still right.

mlindner 8y ago

I assume you don't know any people born in the last 15 years or so. Emoji communication (using just emojis) is quite common, often several in a row.

EpicEng 8y ago
I feel like I'm in the Twilight zone (and no, I don't hang out with a lot of 12 year olds, but I do in fact know that kids like to pepper near everything they write with dumb icons.) The debate is not "are emojis widely used". Yes, of course they are. The question is "opened a whole new way to communicate with each other", which is what I responded to. I say, no, they haven't. I can convey the same emotions with ascii. I can convey the same emotions with written text. If you want to prove me wrong then fine, but don't re-frame the discussion.
- mlindner 8y ago
  The most common emoji I see among kids is (Face With Tears of Joy) or (OK Hand) (apparently ycombinator doesn't support UTF-8). I don't know of any ascii that can do those. (FYI, I'm 28 and I often chat with my younger cousins who are in their mid-teens at the moment.)

lolsal 8y ago

> At best they're just prettier versions of :) and :( Do you really think this? I don't really 'get' emojis but I think you're woefully underestimating their impact on communication and language. The emoji library on a normal iPhone is enormous.

EpicEng 8y ago
>Do you really think this? ...yes? >you're woefully underestimating their impact on communication and language. The emoji library on a normal iPhone is enormous What does one have to do with the other? Yes, there are a lot of dumb icons to chose from. How does that directly lead to "[having a] large impact on communication and language"? If that's true, do you think it's a _positive_ impact?
- blt 8y ago
  Have you ever encountered difficulty conveying or understanding conversational tone over the internet? No? You are lying or lack self-awareness. Voice and body language are important for disambiguating sentences with more than one possible meaning or implication. Emojis approximate the role of voice tone and body language in digital text-based communication.
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    The discussion is not "are emojis in any form useful?", it's "do icons provide a new and before unrealized form of communication". Literally every person here missed the statement in the first comment.