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The map is the territory for belief about belief though, sometimes, if people choose to agree. You can believe things about how people think and this can affec

The map is the territory for belief about belief though, sometimes, if people choose to agree. You can believe things about how people think and this can affect how people think. Sometimes precisely, such as in the case of a mental illness diagnosis a person may have been indoctrinated into believing is their identity, sometimes generally, chaotically, without direct transmission perfectly. I'd compare Machiavellian motivations here, belief about belief with the intent to control comes from the desire to control and rule through thinking, but the domination of thought/behavior of individuals through one's thoughts alone... people eventually become aware of intents, if there's always that imbalance. The problem often stems from assuming one has earned the right to dominate and another must do X,Y,Z to earn respect. Quite frankly, humans from birth to death and every point in between are equivalently autonomous and worthy of being able to think the way they want to, without having to do anything to have earned such a right. Thinking otherwise is a good example of being wrong and clever in a way that can be quite haunting. I think these kinds of validations get conflated with hard data. Often, it is a lot easier to just listen to people and let them believe what they want to. Gotta trust people to come to their own conclusions independently. In the age of machine learning, behavior shaping, I think a lot of this is quite topical.

stcredzero 8y ago
The map is the territory for belief about belief though, sometimes, if people choose to agree. Let's say I build a theme park in the form of a giant map of the world. I could then print a map to my theme park. Quite frankly, humans from birth to death and every point in between are equivalently autonomous and worthy of being able to think the way they want to, without having to do anything to have earned such a right. You can think any way you want to, and I will respect your right to think that way. I can respect that you think, but that doesn't mean I have to respect what you think.
- s-shellfish 8y ago
  > You can think any way you want to, and I will respect your right to think that way. I can respect that you think, but that doesn't mean I have to respect what you think. That's totally fine, just in my personal experience, stuff like that has a funny way of coming back in thought. I find that no matter what words come out in reality, transmission through language, it never really tells you very much about how a person actually thinks. Kind of hard to know how another person thinks, because, that kind of seems like believing in telepathy. Let's say that the mere act of me saying what I 'think' causes my thinking to change, instantly, perfectly flipping to a perfectly opposite perspective. What's there to respect at that point?
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    What's there to respect at that point? You were thinking. I respect that. Hell, if you were sincerely trying to think, then had a total brain-fart, I'd still respect the attempt.
    - s-shellfish 8y ago
      I suppose at this point I would ask the question, what does it mean to think? What is 'thinking'? What's the goal?
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        I tell you what, you think about that and get back to me about it.
        s-shellfish 8y ago
        I've thought about it a lot. It just seems to loop, to find a way that allows me to believe I have done enough work such that I am allowed to have the thoughts I wanted to have from the beginning. There are all sorts of ways I seem to invent to do this. Doing differently, every single time, every new way of working through 'thought', what's the original point? What do you think? Let's compare notes.
        stcredzero 8y ago
        I've thought about it a lot. I think your experience of thought is worth a lot more than anything I could tell you about it. (Yes, I planned that out.) Doing differently, every single time, every new way of working through 'thought', what's the original point? Is it fun? If it's not fun, then don't do that. Also, as far as a "point" goes, that is up to you. Let me testify to you, as an atheist, that you can find meaning in life by living it "meaningfully." Do that enough, and you will find it. Physical and aesthetic activities with others help a lot. Sharing food and experiences with true friends is key. What do you think? Let's compare notes. See the thread above.

stcredzero 8y ago

The map is the territory for belief about belief though, sometimes, if people choose to agree. Let's say I build a theme park in the form of a giant map of the world. I could then print a map to my theme park. Quite frankly, humans from birth to death and every point in between are equivalently autonomous and worthy of being able to think the way they want to, without having to do anything to have earned such a right. You can think any way you want to, and I will respect your right to think that way. I can respect that you think, but that doesn't mean I have to respect what you think.

s-shellfish 8y ago
> You can think any way you want to, and I will respect your right to think that way. I can respect that you think, but that doesn't mean I have to respect what you think. That's totally fine, just in my personal experience, stuff like that has a funny way of coming back in thought. I find that no matter what words come out in reality, transmission through language, it never really tells you very much about how a person actually thinks. Kind of hard to know how another person thinks, because, that kind of seems like believing in telepathy. Let's say that the mere act of me saying what I 'think' causes my thinking to change, instantly, perfectly flipping to a perfectly opposite perspective. What's there to respect at that point?
- stcredzero 8y ago
  What's there to respect at that point? You were thinking. I respect that. Hell, if you were sincerely trying to think, then had a total brain-fart, I'd still respect the attempt.
  - s-shellfish 8y ago
    I suppose at this point I would ask the question, what does it mean to think? What is 'thinking'? What's the goal?
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      I tell you what, you think about that and get back to me about it.
      - s-shellfish 8y ago
        I've thought about it a lot. It just seems to loop, to find a way that allows me to believe I have done enough work such that I am allowed to have the thoughts I wanted to have from the beginning. There are all sorts of ways I seem to invent to do this. Doing differently, every single time, every new way of working through 'thought', what's the original point? What do you think? Let's compare notes.
        stcredzero 8y ago
        I've thought about it a lot. I think your experience of thought is worth a lot more than anything I could tell you about it. (Yes, I planned that out.) Doing differently, every single time, every new way of working through 'thought', what's the original point? Is it fun? If it's not fun, then don't do that. Also, as far as a "point" goes, that is up to you. Let me testify to you, as an atheist, that you can find meaning in life by living it "meaningfully." Do that enough, and you will find it. Physical and aesthetic activities with others help a lot. Sharing food and experiences with true friends is key. What do you think? Let's compare notes. See the thread above.