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I'll probably come off as a spoiled Westerner here, but that's not my intent. Isn't it a bit presumptuous to assume that everyone in impoverished parts of the

I'll probably come off as a spoiled Westerner here, but that's not my intent. Isn't it a bit presumptuous to assume that everyone in impoverished parts of the world even _want_ the kind of prosperity we have? It seems to be taken for granted that all the drawbacks to modern civilization are outweighed by the benefits. But then, isn't this the same mindset that has set us on this course of man-made global heating? I suppose I'm advocating for leaving other countries to decide their own paths and not trying to push our prosperity onto them. If that makes me a greedy Westerner, so be it. I don't exactly enjoy my society, anyway.

ThomPete 8y ago
So somehow magically all the countries who are rich today are the countries that want it and the other countries somehow magically don't or what is your point? Even if there were a few countries that didn't want their kids to survive simple diseases have enough food to feed their family or not have to worry about the safety of their family I am fairly certain that most countries want that. I am also fairly certain that you are not willing to trade all these "drawbacks" of modern society for a life in an unmodern society and even if you were it would most likely be a very short-lived desire. Which countries exactly is it you think don't want the kind of growth we have in the west? Not sure I understand what you are trying to show here.
- gimmeDatCheddar 8y ago
  He doesn't really have a point except to try to justify tanking the standard of living. As a preemptive attempt to justifying literal communism in 2018. Communists know that they cannot implement their vision while maintaining the current standard of living, so they want to tank it.
- plankers 8y ago
  I'm not trying to "show" anything, just advocating for allowing other societies the opportunity for self-determination rather than pushing on them what we think is best. Self-determination is a long and arduous process. It took the U.S. over 250 years to get to where we are (much longer if you consider how much we borrowed from Britain). We've paid a hefty price in mental health along the way. We can provide healthcare and other benefits of modern society through trade without forcing these things on them, although that would admittedly take longer. It could be that poorer countries decide they value traditional culture and avoiding wastefulness (and the climate impacts this brings with it) to convenience and glamor. I don't know, it's not my place to say.
  - ThomPete 8y ago
    Other societies HAVE that opportunity they just didn't choose it and those who can't choose it are desperate to get invited to the club. So not sure what makes you think other societies don't want the kind prosperity to their citizens we have in the west. Not sure what you mean with providing healthcare for them as if it wouldn't be better they themselves were able to provide healthcare. I would urge you to rethink your position. Not because I want to decide what you think but because it's not really founded in anything of thise world.
agumonkey 8y ago
I'm a westerner. But I lived a bit in tropical parts who where very different in lifestyles. I'm also an ex tech-lover (my generation was fed on it). Nowadays, I think I'd enjoy a bit of green between 10 to 1000x more than a UHD Qdot LCD and fiber connection. I think that our lifestyles is toxic, especially for other places (africa, asia), for us too (stress, sadness, different diseases).. anyway, we replaced one kind of life struggle with another one. And I do feel sad that 3rd world is somehow envying, even though it's not surprising, western life is pure eye candy, and designed to be so. And I heard a few people leaving big western cities to go into medium ones, for the difference of pace and life quality (more space, more green).
- ThomPete 8y ago
  If you have children I am pretty sure you would agree that modern society is the best place to be without any real competition.

ThomPete 8y ago

So somehow magically all the countries who are rich today are the countries that want it and the other countries somehow magically don't or what is your point? Even if there were a few countries that didn't want their kids to survive simple diseases have enough food to feed their family or not have to worry about the safety of their family I am fairly certain that most countries want that. I am also fairly certain that you are not willing to trade all these "drawbacks" of modern society for a life in an unmodern society and even if you were it would most likely be a very short-lived desire. Which countries exactly is it you think don't want the kind of growth we have in the west? Not sure I understand what you are trying to show here.

gimmeDatCheddar 8y ago
He doesn't really have a point except to try to justify tanking the standard of living. As a preemptive attempt to justifying literal communism in 2018. Communists know that they cannot implement their vision while maintaining the current standard of living, so they want to tank it.
plankers 8y ago
I'm not trying to "show" anything, just advocating for allowing other societies the opportunity for self-determination rather than pushing on them what we think is best. Self-determination is a long and arduous process. It took the U.S. over 250 years to get to where we are (much longer if you consider how much we borrowed from Britain). We've paid a hefty price in mental health along the way. We can provide healthcare and other benefits of modern society through trade without forcing these things on them, although that would admittedly take longer. It could be that poorer countries decide they value traditional culture and avoiding wastefulness (and the climate impacts this brings with it) to convenience and glamor. I don't know, it's not my place to say.
- ThomPete 8y ago
  Other societies HAVE that opportunity they just didn't choose it and those who can't choose it are desperate to get invited to the club. So not sure what makes you think other societies don't want the kind prosperity to their citizens we have in the west. Not sure what you mean with providing healthcare for them as if it wouldn't be better they themselves were able to provide healthcare. I would urge you to rethink your position. Not because I want to decide what you think but because it's not really founded in anything of thise world.

agumonkey 8y ago

I'm a westerner. But I lived a bit in tropical parts who where very different in lifestyles. I'm also an ex tech-lover (my generation was fed on it). Nowadays, I think I'd enjoy a bit of green between 10 to 1000x more than a UHD Qdot LCD and fiber connection. I think that our lifestyles is toxic, especially for other places (africa, asia), for us too (stress, sadness, different diseases).. anyway, we replaced one kind of life struggle with another one. And I do feel sad that 3rd world is somehow envying, even though it's not surprising, western life is pure eye candy, and designed to be so. And I heard a few people leaving big western cities to go into medium ones, for the difference of pace and life quality (more space, more green).

ThomPete 8y ago
If you have children I am pretty sure you would agree that modern society is the best place to be without any real competition.