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I'm not going to defend Monsanto's bad business practices, but I don't think I've ever met someone who accurately articulated real problems with Monsanto as opp

I'm not going to defend Monsanto's bad business practices, but I don't think I've ever met someone who accurately articulated real problems with Monsanto as opposed to hysteria and conspiracy theory, so this is probably the best move over all.

smt88 8y ago
Burying inconvenient studies about neocotinoids? Why not do your own research and decide?
doublescoop 8y ago
Check the Monsanto Wikipedia page for more details, but the short version is that Monsanto patented its genetically engineered seeds and then sued farmers for patent infringement if they were found to be growing crops from that seed without a license. The problem with this is that seeds tended to blow between fields, so if your neighbor licensed Monsanto seed and then the next year a bunch of that seed manages to take hold in your field, you're liable for a patent infringement. Additionally, they argued, successfully before the Supreme Court in 2013, that additional generations of seed from the initially licensed seed required new licenses from the patent holder. As might be expected, this rubs A LOT of people the wrong way.
- kgwgk 8y ago
  https://monsanto.com/company/media/statements/gmo-contamination-lawsuits/ https://monsanto.com/company/media/statements/gmo-contaminat... Myth: Monsanto sues farmers when GM seed is accidentally in their fields. Fact: Monsanto has never sued a farmer when trace amounts of our patented seeds or traits were present in the farmer’s field as an accident or as a result of inadvertent means.
  - SauciestGNU 8y ago
    While I appreciate that you've provided a source, I am disinclined to trust Monsanto on matters concerning themselves.
    - donarb 8y ago
      You don't have to trust Monsanto. If people were sued as was alleged, there are public records of these lawsuits. To date, no one has provided a record of one.
      - RIMR 8y ago
        Exactly. "But this came from Monsanto" discredits nothing. Monsanto has provided a list of factual statements. If you don't trust them, you can fact-check them. You either are going to have proof that they are lying, or proof that they are telling the truth. Refusing to accept what Monsanto says by virtue of them being Monsanto is, again, just another part of the anti-GMO hysteria...
  - Paul-ish 8y ago
    Do you have another source?
    - kgwgk 8y ago
      https://www.biofortified.org/2015/12/lawsuits-for-inadvertent-contamination/ https://www.biofortified.org/2015/12/lawsuits-for-inadverten... "To conclude this series, I have found no evidence that farmers are sued by Monsanto for inadvertent contamination. The lawsuits that I examined were for cases where farmers knowingly and admittedly used Monsanto seeds without licensing contracts."
    - RIMR 8y ago
      Monsanto has presented you with a list of factual statements. If you believe them to be inaccurate, you have an ocean of public records at your disposal that would make doing so very easy. Of course, nobody has ever debunked this page, because there's nothing to debunk.
    - dionidium 8y ago
      The claim is that it never happened. Anybody can be a source for that :) If it’s happened, then there should be some credible source detailing the case in which it happened. No such source exists.
- skrause 8y ago
  But this is more a problem with the patent system than with the company. Why are they even allowed to patent genes?
- Eridrus 8y ago
  > The problem with this is that seeds tended to blow between fields, so if your neighbor licensed Monsanto seed and then the next year a bunch of that seed manages to take hold in your field, you're liable for a patent infringement. Do you know of a court case where this actually happened? I've seen this defense thrown around in the few cases I've seen, but investigators have usually had evidence that it wasn't accidental contamination, but rather just being used as an opportunistic defense. > Additionally, they argued, successfully before the Supreme Court in 2013, that additional generations of seed from the initially licensed seed required new licenses from the patent holder. I found this court case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowman_v._Monsanto_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowman_v._Monsanto_Co. "sold the seed from which these soybeans were grown to farmers under a limited use license that prohibited the farmer-buyer from using the seeds for more than a single season or from saving any seed produced from the crop for replanting" I'm not totally sure what's objectionable about this ruling. The original buyers explicitly agreed to the license. I think there is an argument to be made against intellectual property in general, but this doesn't seem any more egregious than, e.g. music or software copyright, and most people are quite happy with those.
  - nitrogen 8y ago
    this doesn't seem any more egregious than, e.g. music or software copyright, and most people are quite happy with those. Many pro-copyright arguments are accompanied by "You don't need it, so if you don't like the [price, terms, DRM] just don't consume it." This is dealing with actual food, which we most definitely do need, so people will understandably be a bit more motivated.
    - Digital-Citizen 8y ago
      I take it as sign of failing moderation that the parent comment was moderated down and rendered harder to read by default. It's quite right--music copyright licensing is not foreseeably an issue of life and death. Any music copyright holder depending on that income can try and get another paying job, even a non-musical job to earn money. I'm not a fan of that approach (for reasons outside the scope of this discussion) but it is more practical than waiting for a license check and starving. Planting seeds, harvesting plants for food, and replanting the seeds that naturally grow was a process big agriculture had to spend effort to stymie because the natural way got in the way of profits. That's harmful to us all. Also, the grandparent article is conflating copyright and patent laws in the language of "intellectual property" and ought not be allowed to go without comment. These laws work very differently, cost different amounts of money to acquire and defend, and conflating them is a sign of ignorance or a sham. These laws have far more separating them than they share (one sentence in the US Constitution). https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#IntellectualProperty https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Intellect... explains more in-depth.
- bret791 8y ago
  I think the bigger issue is the "Round-Up Ready" crops and the fact that they produce sterile seeds. Using Round-Up ready seeds allows the use of Round-Up for weed control on your fields, but this can have negative affects on neighboring farms. For example on Field A, populated with Round-Up ready seeds, Round Up is used to control the weeds. However this same spray can affect neighboring field B, which is not populated by Round-Up Ready seeds, causing weeds and crop die or reduced yields... So basically if your neighbor is using Round-Up, you need to also, and your neighbor...etc. So now everyone is locked into Round-Up ready seeds they have to buy every year.
  - biotechjones 8y ago
    Round-up Ready crops are not sterile. Farmers spraying their neighbours' fields could be a problem I guess. But its a problem that would pre-date GMOs. Farmers have been spraying their crops for hundreds of years? (well at least decades)
    - DubiousPusher 8y ago
      This has actually been a frequent cause of conflict between farmers for several generations now.
  - bret791 8y ago
    Well looks like you're right, I found a shit source (and believed it based on something I'd heard before... https://monsanto.com/company/media/statements/terminator-seeds-myth/ https://monsanto.com/company/media/statements/terminator-see... http://web.mit.edu/demoscience/Monsanto/about.html http://web.mit.edu/demoscience/Monsanto/about.html It seems the drifting argument is a interpretation on Dicamba issues.. Which could go either way: https://www.agweb.com/article/dicamba-lawsuits-mounting--naa-chris-bennett/ https://www.agweb.com/article/dicamba-lawsuits-mounting--naa...
  - Obi_Juan_Kenobi 8y ago
    > the fact that they produce sterile seeds An interesting fact, to be sure, since Terminator^TM technology hasn't been used in fields .. ever. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_use_restriction_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_use_restriction_techno... Also interesting, Terminator was developed (primarily by the USDA) to address environmental concerns about potentially contaminating wild populations with transgenes. But of course, it's Monsanto (not actually, though) so it's evil! You may be confused about hybrid seed, which is germplasm developed from particular parental lines to produce a unusually vigorous progeny. This 'hybrid vigor' only lasts one generation, though. Hybrid seed has been the rule since about the 1950s, well before transgenes, but don't let that pollute the narrative about GMO killing seed saving! It's also interesting to mention overspray with regard to RoundUp; one of the major selling points for Glyphosate is that you don't need to apply much, and it doesn't persist long in the soil, both highly beneficial traits for eliminating overspray issues. That's not to say there aren't any concerns with Glyphosate, but as far as herbicides go, it's pretty tame. As a bonus, Glyphosate has enabled a huge rise in no-till agriculture, which is terrific for preserving fragile soils, reducing fossil fuel use, etc.
- dionidium 8y ago
  The problem with this is that seeds tended to blow between fields And the problem with this is that it's nothing more than a spurious hypothetical that never actually happened. Monsanto sued and won in cases where farmers were deliberately storing and replanting seeds in knowing violation of their agreement with Monsanto.
- criley2 8y ago
  "Check the Monsanto Wikipedia page for more details, but the short version is that Monsanto patented its genetically engineered seeds and then sued farmers for patent infringement if they were found to be growing crops from that seed without a license." This is precisely the hysteria and conspiracy theory I am referring to. Short answer: it's fake. Longer answer: The farmers you reference intentionally stole seed, they never purchased it, and they indended to use and grow it. A farmer does not have a little seed blow in and magically entire field after field after field is perfectly planted. They stole, it is what it is. This is precisely why they should change their name. Even here in a supposedly intellectual forum, vapid nonsense is passed off as fact. P.S. had you visited Monsanto's wikipedia page, as you instruct others to, you would have been cured of your conspiracy. Here's your link, btw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_legal_cases#As_plaintiff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_legal_cases#As_plaint... " That said, Monsanto has stated it will not "exercise its patent rights where trace amounts of our patented seed or traits are present in farmer's fields as a result of inadvertent means."[15] The Federal Circuit found that this assurance is binding on Monsanto, so that farmers who do not harvest more than a trace amount of Monsanto's patented crops "lack an essential element of standing" to challenge Monsanto's patents" "The usual claim involves patent infringement due to intentionally replanting patented seed. Such activity was unanimously found by the United States Supreme Court to constitute patent infringement in Bowman v. Monsanto Co. (2013)" AKA it's only an issue when a farmer intentionally replants entire fields of seeds and has nothing to do with "blowing seeds" or trace amounts or any accidents or acts of nature. Oops! In Canada, a similar incident occurred where a farmer had an incidental amount of Monsanto seed blow in, and then he isolated it from other varieties and reproduced his own copies of Monsanto seeds to fill all of his fields with his copies of their seeds, and again, he stole from them. He intentionally filled his fields with seeds he knew he wasn't supposed to have (or argued wrongly that he could have).
mkirklions 8y ago
Agreed, I like the idea of GMOs because more people get food, less pesticides are used, etc... What I dont like is that they often get involved with politics trying to patent food/seeds. If they want to do what apple companies do and brand their seeds, cool. Making food illegal to produce without approval is dangerous.
- yumyumyumyumyum 8y ago
  Actually, one of the biggest GMs from Monsanto is their 'Roundup ready' genetics, which makes the plant resistant to a potent herbicide called roundup (which they sell), which is a systemic herbicide containing glyphosate. They spray the whole field with that, and everything but the roundup-ready crops dies, including blow-over on the edges of fields. There are health controversies around this chemical, and it is now very prevalent in our food supply. In 2014, ~82% of soy cultivation is this particular GMO. You can imagine how little genetic diversity that gives us on an important staple crop, too. Soybeans aren't the only roundup ready crop, corn is another big one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_soybean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_soybean
  - DubiousPusher 8y ago
    Overall, this leads to less herbicides being used because Roundup is so effective. Normally a farmer is forced to use many applications of a variety of herbicides (some with proven problems for humans.) In comparison a couple blanketings of Roundup is preferable. The problem of Roundup resistance and decreasing genetic diversity is a serious concern though.
    - yumyumyumyumyum 8y ago
      Initially, maybe, but i've read glyphosate resistant strains of pigweed quickly took over have been causing big problems. For many farmers, pigweed was the catalyst for them moving to roundup ready crops. Apparently Monsanto is trying to push Dicamba resistant crops now (see above). Herbicides aren't the only solution for that problem. Some practices such a tilling, for example, churns up a bunch of weed seeds which exacerbates the problem (and others).
wavefunction 8y ago
>I'm not going to defend Monsanto's bad business practices >I don't think I've ever met someone who accurately articulated real problems with Monsanto as opposed to hysteria and conspiracy theory I guess "bad business practices" are not real problems. In fact they illustrate the fundamental ethical issues with technology: how is it going to be used?
ksk 8y ago
>but I don't think I've ever met someone who accurately articulated real problems with Monsanto as opposed to hysteria and conspiracy theory, so this is probably the best move over all. True, I guess part of the reason is people here don't have the domain knowledge. Us programmers are only experts in our narrow fields. I take most comments here on agriculture/politics/patents/etc with a bit of humor. :^)

smt88 8y ago

Burying inconvenient studies about neocotinoids? Why not do your own research and decide?

doublescoop 8y ago

Check the Monsanto Wikipedia page for more details, but the short version is that Monsanto patented its genetically engineered seeds and then sued farmers for patent infringement if they were found to be growing crops from that seed without a license. The problem with this is that seeds tended to blow between fields, so if your neighbor licensed Monsanto seed and then the next year a bunch of that seed manages to take hold in your field, you're liable for a patent infringement. Additionally, they argued, successfully before the Supreme Court in 2013, that additional generations of seed from the initially licensed seed required new licenses from the patent holder. As might be expected, this rubs A LOT of people the wrong way.

kgwgk 8y ago
https://monsanto.com/company/media/statements/gmo-contamination-lawsuits/ https://monsanto.com/company/media/statements/gmo-contaminat... Myth: Monsanto sues farmers when GM seed is accidentally in their fields. Fact: Monsanto has never sued a farmer when trace amounts of our patented seeds or traits were present in the farmer’s field as an accident or as a result of inadvertent means.
- SauciestGNU 8y ago
  While I appreciate that you've provided a source, I am disinclined to trust Monsanto on matters concerning themselves.
  - donarb 8y ago
    You don't have to trust Monsanto. If people were sued as was alleged, there are public records of these lawsuits. To date, no one has provided a record of one.
    - RIMR 8y ago
      Exactly. "But this came from Monsanto" discredits nothing. Monsanto has provided a list of factual statements. If you don't trust them, you can fact-check them. You either are going to have proof that they are lying, or proof that they are telling the truth. Refusing to accept what Monsanto says by virtue of them being Monsanto is, again, just another part of the anti-GMO hysteria...
- Paul-ish 8y ago
  Do you have another source?
  - kgwgk 8y ago
    https://www.biofortified.org/2015/12/lawsuits-for-inadvertent-contamination/ https://www.biofortified.org/2015/12/lawsuits-for-inadverten... "To conclude this series, I have found no evidence that farmers are sued by Monsanto for inadvertent contamination. The lawsuits that I examined were for cases where farmers knowingly and admittedly used Monsanto seeds without licensing contracts."
  - RIMR 8y ago
    Monsanto has presented you with a list of factual statements. If you believe them to be inaccurate, you have an ocean of public records at your disposal that would make doing so very easy. Of course, nobody has ever debunked this page, because there's nothing to debunk.
  - dionidium 8y ago
    The claim is that it never happened. Anybody can be a source for that :) If it’s happened, then there should be some credible source detailing the case in which it happened. No such source exists.
skrause 8y ago
But this is more a problem with the patent system than with the company. Why are they even allowed to patent genes?
Eridrus 8y ago
> The problem with this is that seeds tended to blow between fields, so if your neighbor licensed Monsanto seed and then the next year a bunch of that seed manages to take hold in your field, you're liable for a patent infringement. Do you know of a court case where this actually happened? I've seen this defense thrown around in the few cases I've seen, but investigators have usually had evidence that it wasn't accidental contamination, but rather just being used as an opportunistic defense. > Additionally, they argued, successfully before the Supreme Court in 2013, that additional generations of seed from the initially licensed seed required new licenses from the patent holder. I found this court case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowman_v._Monsanto_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowman_v._Monsanto_Co. "sold the seed from which these soybeans were grown to farmers under a limited use license that prohibited the farmer-buyer from using the seeds for more than a single season or from saving any seed produced from the crop for replanting" I'm not totally sure what's objectionable about this ruling. The original buyers explicitly agreed to the license. I think there is an argument to be made against intellectual property in general, but this doesn't seem any more egregious than, e.g. music or software copyright, and most people are quite happy with those.
- nitrogen 8y ago
  this doesn't seem any more egregious than, e.g. music or software copyright, and most people are quite happy with those. Many pro-copyright arguments are accompanied by "You don't need it, so if you don't like the [price, terms, DRM] just don't consume it." This is dealing with actual food, which we most definitely do need, so people will understandably be a bit more motivated.
  - Digital-Citizen 8y ago
    I take it as sign of failing moderation that the parent comment was moderated down and rendered harder to read by default. It's quite right--music copyright licensing is not foreseeably an issue of life and death. Any music copyright holder depending on that income can try and get another paying job, even a non-musical job to earn money. I'm not a fan of that approach (for reasons outside the scope of this discussion) but it is more practical than waiting for a license check and starving. Planting seeds, harvesting plants for food, and replanting the seeds that naturally grow was a process big agriculture had to spend effort to stymie because the natural way got in the way of profits. That's harmful to us all. Also, the grandparent article is conflating copyright and patent laws in the language of "intellectual property" and ought not be allowed to go without comment. These laws work very differently, cost different amounts of money to acquire and defend, and conflating them is a sign of ignorance or a sham. These laws have far more separating them than they share (one sentence in the US Constitution). https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#IntellectualProperty https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html#Intellect... explains more in-depth.
bret791 8y ago
I think the bigger issue is the "Round-Up Ready" crops and the fact that they produce sterile seeds. Using Round-Up ready seeds allows the use of Round-Up for weed control on your fields, but this can have negative affects on neighboring farms. For example on Field A, populated with Round-Up ready seeds, Round Up is used to control the weeds. However this same spray can affect neighboring field B, which is not populated by Round-Up Ready seeds, causing weeds and crop die or reduced yields... So basically if your neighbor is using Round-Up, you need to also, and your neighbor...etc. So now everyone is locked into Round-Up ready seeds they have to buy every year.
- biotechjones 8y ago
  Round-up Ready crops are not sterile. Farmers spraying their neighbours' fields could be a problem I guess. But its a problem that would pre-date GMOs. Farmers have been spraying their crops for hundreds of years? (well at least decades)
  - DubiousPusher 8y ago
    This has actually been a frequent cause of conflict between farmers for several generations now.
- bret791 8y ago
  Well looks like you're right, I found a shit source (and believed it based on something I'd heard before... https://monsanto.com/company/media/statements/terminator-seeds-myth/ https://monsanto.com/company/media/statements/terminator-see... http://web.mit.edu/demoscience/Monsanto/about.html http://web.mit.edu/demoscience/Monsanto/about.html It seems the drifting argument is a interpretation on Dicamba issues.. Which could go either way: https://www.agweb.com/article/dicamba-lawsuits-mounting--naa-chris-bennett/ https://www.agweb.com/article/dicamba-lawsuits-mounting--naa...
- Obi_Juan_Kenobi 8y ago
  > the fact that they produce sterile seeds An interesting fact, to be sure, since Terminator^TM technology hasn't been used in fields .. ever. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_use_restriction_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_use_restriction_techno... Also interesting, Terminator was developed (primarily by the USDA) to address environmental concerns about potentially contaminating wild populations with transgenes. But of course, it's Monsanto (not actually, though) so it's evil! You may be confused about hybrid seed, which is germplasm developed from particular parental lines to produce a unusually vigorous progeny. This 'hybrid vigor' only lasts one generation, though. Hybrid seed has been the rule since about the 1950s, well before transgenes, but don't let that pollute the narrative about GMO killing seed saving! It's also interesting to mention overspray with regard to RoundUp; one of the major selling points for Glyphosate is that you don't need to apply much, and it doesn't persist long in the soil, both highly beneficial traits for eliminating overspray issues. That's not to say there aren't any concerns with Glyphosate, but as far as herbicides go, it's pretty tame. As a bonus, Glyphosate has enabled a huge rise in no-till agriculture, which is terrific for preserving fragile soils, reducing fossil fuel use, etc.
dionidium 8y ago
The problem with this is that seeds tended to blow between fields And the problem with this is that it's nothing more than a spurious hypothetical that never actually happened. Monsanto sued and won in cases where farmers were deliberately storing and replanting seeds in knowing violation of their agreement with Monsanto.
criley2 8y ago
"Check the Monsanto Wikipedia page for more details, but the short version is that Monsanto patented its genetically engineered seeds and then sued farmers for patent infringement if they were found to be growing crops from that seed without a license." This is precisely the hysteria and conspiracy theory I am referring to. Short answer: it's fake. Longer answer: The farmers you reference intentionally stole seed, they never purchased it, and they indended to use and grow it. A farmer does not have a little seed blow in and magically entire field after field after field is perfectly planted. They stole, it is what it is. This is precisely why they should change their name. Even here in a supposedly intellectual forum, vapid nonsense is passed off as fact. P.S. had you visited Monsanto's wikipedia page, as you instruct others to, you would have been cured of your conspiracy. Here's your link, btw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_legal_cases#As_plaintiff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_legal_cases#As_plaint... " That said, Monsanto has stated it will not "exercise its patent rights where trace amounts of our patented seed or traits are present in farmer's fields as a result of inadvertent means."[15] The Federal Circuit found that this assurance is binding on Monsanto, so that farmers who do not harvest more than a trace amount of Monsanto's patented crops "lack an essential element of standing" to challenge Monsanto's patents" "The usual claim involves patent infringement due to intentionally replanting patented seed. Such activity was unanimously found by the United States Supreme Court to constitute patent infringement in Bowman v. Monsanto Co. (2013)" AKA it's only an issue when a farmer intentionally replants entire fields of seeds and has nothing to do with "blowing seeds" or trace amounts or any accidents or acts of nature. Oops! In Canada, a similar incident occurred where a farmer had an incidental amount of Monsanto seed blow in, and then he isolated it from other varieties and reproduced his own copies of Monsanto seeds to fill all of his fields with his copies of their seeds, and again, he stole from them. He intentionally filled his fields with seeds he knew he wasn't supposed to have (or argued wrongly that he could have).

mkirklions 8y ago

Agreed, I like the idea of GMOs because more people get food, less pesticides are used, etc... What I dont like is that they often get involved with politics trying to patent food/seeds. If they want to do what apple companies do and brand their seeds, cool. Making food illegal to produce without approval is dangerous.

yumyumyumyumyum 8y ago
Actually, one of the biggest GMs from Monsanto is their 'Roundup ready' genetics, which makes the plant resistant to a potent herbicide called roundup (which they sell), which is a systemic herbicide containing glyphosate. They spray the whole field with that, and everything but the roundup-ready crops dies, including blow-over on the edges of fields. There are health controversies around this chemical, and it is now very prevalent in our food supply. In 2014, ~82% of soy cultivation is this particular GMO. You can imagine how little genetic diversity that gives us on an important staple crop, too. Soybeans aren't the only roundup ready crop, corn is another big one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_soybean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_soybean
- DubiousPusher 8y ago
  Overall, this leads to less herbicides being used because Roundup is so effective. Normally a farmer is forced to use many applications of a variety of herbicides (some with proven problems for humans.) In comparison a couple blanketings of Roundup is preferable. The problem of Roundup resistance and decreasing genetic diversity is a serious concern though.
  - yumyumyumyumyum 8y ago
    Initially, maybe, but i've read glyphosate resistant strains of pigweed quickly took over have been causing big problems. For many farmers, pigweed was the catalyst for them moving to roundup ready crops. Apparently Monsanto is trying to push Dicamba resistant crops now (see above). Herbicides aren't the only solution for that problem. Some practices such a tilling, for example, churns up a bunch of weed seeds which exacerbates the problem (and others).

wavefunction 8y ago

>I'm not going to defend Monsanto's bad business practices >I don't think I've ever met someone who accurately articulated real problems with Monsanto as opposed to hysteria and conspiracy theory I guess "bad business practices" are not real problems. In fact they illustrate the fundamental ethical issues with technology: how is it going to be used?

ksk 8y ago

>but I don't think I've ever met someone who accurately articulated real problems with Monsanto as opposed to hysteria and conspiracy theory, so this is probably the best move over all. True, I guess part of the reason is people here don't have the domain knowledge. Us programmers are only experts in our narrow fields. I take most comments here on agriculture/politics/patents/etc with a bit of humor. :^)