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I don't like the idea of this, but even the implementation is bad. If we're going to do DNS over HTTPS, then there should be a standalone application, and the s

I don't like the idea of this, but even the implementation is bad. If we're going to do DNS over HTTPS, then there should be a standalone application, and the system should be reconfigured to use it, so all running applications on the system use it. I mean, do we really want all of our desktop applications to have their own built in custom ways of mapping domain names to IP addresses? [edit] E.g on Linux, it could install an application with a DNS interface listening on localhost port 53, which would then convert the request into a "DNS over HTTPS" request, and resolv.conf would be updated to use that resolver.

madmax96 8y ago
Totally agree re: implementation details. And, like you said, this is a bad idea. Is there something wrong with efforts like DNSCrypt + DNSSec? That's supposed to provide authentication and encryption to DNS without sending everything over HTTP. Did Mozilla just totally ignore the work that's already been done in this area?
- HurrdurrHodor 8y ago
  Just a guess but maybe they wanted to build this in a way that it would actually get used.
  - mike-cardwell 8y ago
    There's no reason that Firefox couldn't check for the existence of a local DOH resolver, and if it doesn't see one, pop up a one time message offering to install one for you. Every operating system has a system wide way of resolving names to IP addresses, and every application uses it. This new architecture of building custom name resolution into individual applications might be easier for them to build, but it's crap.
  - madmax96 8y ago
    That doesn't address my concerns, actually. Mozilla is doing two things: 1. Bundling DNS with the browser (e.g. ignoring system DNS) 2. Using DNS over HTTPS Mozilla could still do (1) and then use DNSCrypt + DNSSEC internally. Then, it would actually be used, but they'd be relying on existing technology that actually fits the use-case, rather than DNS-over-HTTPS. For the record, I don't think you should ignore the system's DNS, either.
- tptacek 8y ago
  DNSSEC doesn't do any of what DoH does. It doesn't provide query privacy. It doesn't even typically protect the last mile between end-user resolvers and servers; it's a server-to-server protocol. I'm deeply skeptical (to put it nicely) about DNSSEC, but you don't even have to share that perspective to see why DoH is useful --- it covers a set of problems DNSSEC simply doesn't address. DNSCrypt is a niche protocol that basically does do what DoH does. Very few people use it. You can use it instead of DoH, if you like; just disable DoH in Firefox and set up DNSCrypt with your system resolver.
Leon 8y ago
There are lots of Open Source projects that will do what you are asking. Here is the first top hit on using bind to do that - https://github.com/wrouesnel/dns-over-https-proxy https://github.com/wrouesnel/dns-over-https-proxy However I disagree that it is a bad idea and that the implementation is bad. Regardless of how software _should_ behave, Firefox operates in how software is actually run for their users. DNS is a source of security vulnerabilities and headaches. Demanding a higher level abstraction is not always an option for many, but using Firefox often is. This is especially important for mobile, where a lot of people don't have access or knowledge to set in place a system wide proxy after rooting their phones, but it is very easy to install Firefox mobile. What about web browser usage on library or campus computers? Often they will have several browsers installed as well. The point is that making security more available and easier to use where it matters most is a good idea.
- novaleaf 8y ago
  I just spent some time searching, and I actually don't see much in the way of clients. Most search results seem to be talking about how wizz-bang dns-over-https is, or talking about firefox's implementation. If you know of a DNS over HTTPS client for Windows, please link it!
  - jedisct1 8y ago
    https://simplednscrypt.org/ https://simplednscrypt.org/
moderation 8y ago
I'm using Cloudflare's cloudflared [0] on all of my machines and it working well and does what you are looking for. Nice bonus is being able to collect metrics from each of the agents in Prometheus. [0] https://github.com/cloudflare/cloudflared https://github.com/cloudflare/cloudflared
jedisct1 8y ago
dnscrypt-proxy is probably the most popular DNS-over-HTTPS client. https://github.com/jedisct1/dnscrypt-proxy https://github.com/jedisct1/dnscrypt-proxy

madmax96 8y ago

Totally agree re: implementation details. And, like you said, this is a bad idea. Is there something wrong with efforts like DNSCrypt + DNSSec? That's supposed to provide authentication and encryption to DNS without sending everything over HTTP. Did Mozilla just totally ignore the work that's already been done in this area?

HurrdurrHodor 8y ago
Just a guess but maybe they wanted to build this in a way that it would actually get used.
- mike-cardwell 8y ago
  There's no reason that Firefox couldn't check for the existence of a local DOH resolver, and if it doesn't see one, pop up a one time message offering to install one for you. Every operating system has a system wide way of resolving names to IP addresses, and every application uses it. This new architecture of building custom name resolution into individual applications might be easier for them to build, but it's crap.
- madmax96 8y ago
  That doesn't address my concerns, actually. Mozilla is doing two things: 1. Bundling DNS with the browser (e.g. ignoring system DNS) 2. Using DNS over HTTPS Mozilla could still do (1) and then use DNSCrypt + DNSSEC internally. Then, it would actually be used, but they'd be relying on existing technology that actually fits the use-case, rather than DNS-over-HTTPS. For the record, I don't think you should ignore the system's DNS, either.
tptacek 8y ago
DNSSEC doesn't do any of what DoH does. It doesn't provide query privacy. It doesn't even typically protect the last mile between end-user resolvers and servers; it's a server-to-server protocol. I'm deeply skeptical (to put it nicely) about DNSSEC, but you don't even have to share that perspective to see why DoH is useful --- it covers a set of problems DNSSEC simply doesn't address. DNSCrypt is a niche protocol that basically does do what DoH does. Very few people use it. You can use it instead of DoH, if you like; just disable DoH in Firefox and set up DNSCrypt with your system resolver.

Leon 8y ago

There are lots of Open Source projects that will do what you are asking. Here is the first top hit on using bind to do that - https://github.com/wrouesnel/dns-over-https-proxy https://github.com/wrouesnel/dns-over-https-proxy However I disagree that it is a bad idea and that the implementation is bad. Regardless of how software _should_ behave, Firefox operates in how software is actually run for their users. DNS is a source of security vulnerabilities and headaches. Demanding a higher level abstraction is not always an option for many, but using Firefox often is. This is especially important for mobile, where a lot of people don't have access or knowledge to set in place a system wide proxy after rooting their phones, but it is very easy to install Firefox mobile. What about web browser usage on library or campus computers? Often they will have several browsers installed as well. The point is that making security more available and easier to use where it matters most is a good idea.

novaleaf 8y ago
I just spent some time searching, and I actually don't see much in the way of clients. Most search results seem to be talking about how wizz-bang dns-over-https is, or talking about firefox's implementation. If you know of a DNS over HTTPS client for Windows, please link it!
- jedisct1 8y ago
  https://simplednscrypt.org/ https://simplednscrypt.org/

moderation 8y ago

I'm using Cloudflare's cloudflared [0] on all of my machines and it working well and does what you are looking for. Nice bonus is being able to collect metrics from each of the agents in Prometheus. [0] https://github.com/cloudflare/cloudflared https://github.com/cloudflare/cloudflared

jedisct1 8y ago

dnscrypt-proxy is probably the most popular DNS-over-HTTPS client. https://github.com/jedisct1/dnscrypt-proxy https://github.com/jedisct1/dnscrypt-proxy