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> I am very, very tired of the homeless tents everywhere Let's be careful about confusing our frustrations with something that is wrong or illegal. Frustrating

> I am very, very tired of the homeless tents everywhere Let's be careful about confusing our frustrations with something that is wrong or illegal. Frustrating me isn't wrong and it isn't illegal; my frustrations aren't evidence of either - they are, in fact, irrelevant to those questions. More importantly, many people and groups frustrate me, sometimes to a great extent. Political leaders stand out, as do many in tech; comments on HN sometimes frustrate me. Bigots frustrate me and cause great harm, IMO. I sometimes frustrate others. Why doesn't the state act against those people? Why doesn't it act against me? The state shouldn't act because we all have rights; it doesn't act because the people in this paragraph have political power. As a result, we all have to accommodate each other Homeless people do not have power. They don't have political representatives who can insist on their priorities - who in fact must insist to keep their jobs - even when others don't like them, which is perhaps the only important meaning of power. If law enforcement acts illegally or excessively toward them, they can't protect themselves. And in the courts, they have no lawyers, and judges and juries give them no credibility and don't take their pleas seriously. The great sin of government is the powerful abusing the powerless, the strong abusing the weak. It's long been a problem in the U.S. too; minorities, for example, could be publicly murdered or lynched and nobody would act; laws clearly abusing the minority, such as voting rights laws, can be implemented and they are powerless to stop it. I think we should be very careful to not let our frustrations drive us and repeat that grave error.

googlemike 8y ago
So if the purpose of your comment is to point out that the homeless tents are not illegal, you are incorrect. The tents are illegal. But my frustration, as you can see by my comments elsewhere in this thread, are grounded in that a city of such wealth and technological progress cannot take care of it's lowest citizens. Aside from the odd choice of perspective - have you considered that the homeless may be infringing on others rights as well? The right to an unobstructed sidewalk? The right to feel safe in my neighborhood? The right to not have to watch out for needles when I visit my nearest Muni station (Van Ness)?
- Nuzzerino 8y ago
  You could always do what I did and leave. Waiting for it to get fixed is unlikely to work out, and the tech industry is past it's glory days.
- forapurpose 8y ago
  > illegal Legality, while an important factor, is not the end of the discussion. Helping freed slaves was once illegal, using an extreme example. Legality depends on who is powerful, referring back to the GP. > odd choice of perspective Who says it's odd? Why would that be relevant? Is it odd to you because it isn't your perspective? It isn't the perspective you expect to see in this community? Is it good or bad to have 'odd' perspectives? > the homeless may be infringing on others rights as well? The right to an unobstructed sidewalk? The right to feel safe in my neighborhood? The right to not have to watch out for needles when I visit my nearest Muni station (Van Ness)? None of those things are really rights. Mostly, they are frustrations, and that's my point: I'm not saying people shouldn't come to accommodations with each other. I'm saying that frustrations of the powerful are not a basis of rights or of imposing on the powerless. Imagine your homeless neighbors had a representative negotiating with you and your housed neighbors on an equal basis. How would you work it out? Has anyone asked your homeless neighbors what they need or want? > purpose of your comment ... That purpose is a creation of the parent, not me (the author of the GP). I'm going to stick with the words on the page.
  - kirubakaran 8y ago
    It was you who brought up legality in the first place! Relevant snippets: googlemike: "I am very, very tired of the homeless tents everywhere" forapurpose: "Let's be careful about confusing our frustrations with something that is wrong or illegal." googlemike: "The tents are illegal" forapurpose: "Legality, while an important factor, is not the end of the discussion."
    - forapurpose 8y ago
      I don't see how the parent adds to the conversation or says anything important about the accuracy of the GP. If the conversation was a contest between googlemike and me then we might need a referee to make sure we played fair. But it's not; we're just trying to advance ours (and hopefully others') knowledge a little. Would it be better if I anticipated every possible response and addressed it in my GGGP comment? Uhhh ... probably not; that would be a very long comment and I don't have time for it. Sorry if that makes the thread confusing, but while suboptimal, I don't think it's hard to follow.

googlemike 8y ago

So if the purpose of your comment is to point out that the homeless tents are not illegal, you are incorrect. The tents are illegal. But my frustration, as you can see by my comments elsewhere in this thread, are grounded in that a city of such wealth and technological progress cannot take care of it's lowest citizens. Aside from the odd choice of perspective - have you considered that the homeless may be infringing on others rights as well? The right to an unobstructed sidewalk? The right to feel safe in my neighborhood? The right to not have to watch out for needles when I visit my nearest Muni station (Van Ness)?

Nuzzerino 8y ago
You could always do what I did and leave. Waiting for it to get fixed is unlikely to work out, and the tech industry is past it's glory days.
forapurpose 8y ago
> illegal Legality, while an important factor, is not the end of the discussion. Helping freed slaves was once illegal, using an extreme example. Legality depends on who is powerful, referring back to the GP. > odd choice of perspective Who says it's odd? Why would that be relevant? Is it odd to you because it isn't your perspective? It isn't the perspective you expect to see in this community? Is it good or bad to have 'odd' perspectives? > the homeless may be infringing on others rights as well? The right to an unobstructed sidewalk? The right to feel safe in my neighborhood? The right to not have to watch out for needles when I visit my nearest Muni station (Van Ness)? None of those things are really rights. Mostly, they are frustrations, and that's my point: I'm not saying people shouldn't come to accommodations with each other. I'm saying that frustrations of the powerful are not a basis of rights or of imposing on the powerless. Imagine your homeless neighbors had a representative negotiating with you and your housed neighbors on an equal basis. How would you work it out? Has anyone asked your homeless neighbors what they need or want? > purpose of your comment ... That purpose is a creation of the parent, not me (the author of the GP). I'm going to stick with the words on the page.
- kirubakaran 8y ago
  It was you who brought up legality in the first place! Relevant snippets: googlemike: "I am very, very tired of the homeless tents everywhere" forapurpose: "Let's be careful about confusing our frustrations with something that is wrong or illegal." googlemike: "The tents are illegal" forapurpose: "Legality, while an important factor, is not the end of the discussion."
  - forapurpose 8y ago
    I don't see how the parent adds to the conversation or says anything important about the accuracy of the GP. If the conversation was a contest between googlemike and me then we might need a referee to make sure we played fair. But it's not; we're just trying to advance ours (and hopefully others') knowledge a little. Would it be better if I anticipated every possible response and addressed it in my GGGP comment? Uhhh ... probably not; that would be a very long comment and I don't have time for it. Sorry if that makes the thread confusing, but while suboptimal, I don't think it's hard to follow.