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> Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft" OK, I respect the call for keeping an open mind. Always a good approa

> Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft" OK, I respect the call for keeping an open mind. Always a good approach. But let's not forget all of the moves toward a friendlier Microsoft/Linux world looks suspiciously like "Embrace" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis... I for one am willing to keep an open mind, but will be following these types of developments closely. I hope to be proven wrong.

tomnipotent 8y ago
Then EVERY single other business of its size has a strategy that looks like "Embrace". The only difference is that Microsoft had a memo leak.
- wasx 8y ago
  ... which is exactly the problem. The issue is the tactic, not the company employing it. It’s just this company has a serious habit of employing those tactics, hence the distrust.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Lio 8y ago
    I'd like anyone in any business contemplating an Embrace, Extinguish strategy to know that it ends in people not trusting your company and being unwilling to work with your services. I would like to know how much it is costing Microsoft to fix that damaged reputation so that other executives will know if they do this it will end up costing at least X amount.
    - chme 8y ago
      Hmm... I would think that it will cost Microsoft a rethinking of their business strategy. If their 'Embrace' looks like 'Yes we are compatible with...' and their 'Extend' like 'If you use our layer you can also do...' then people stay sceptical. Instead their 'Embrace' should be 'How can we help you with your open source product?' and their 'Extend': 'Here are patches that fixes problems, improves performance and implement community wanted features.' It seems companies like this always try to hold the door to 'Extinguish' open.
    - contextfree 8y ago
      I really don't think reputational damage in this case came from adopting an embrace-and-extend strategy as such, but rather the monopolistic position they were in combined with specific tactics they used.
- jsiepkes 8y ago
  The Memo leak was just the tip of the iceberg. MS also lost multiple court cases about their anticompetitive behaviour (for example gov of US, Sun) in that era.
- r00fus 8y ago
  Did you forget the Extend, Extinguish parts of the strategy, or are you just paraphrasing EEE to make it sound somewhat ok?
  - pitkali 8y ago
    Pretty sure he means that just seeing symptoms of Embrace is not enough to sound the alarm that it's going to be extended and extinguished. After all, what's the point of building software, if it's never embraced, aka, used?
    - zentiggr 8y ago
      The typical implication of "Embrace" in these EEE uses is not 'figure out how to work in tandem with' but more 'how can we the amoeba surround and prepare to Extinguish this'. Hence the justified caution and monitoring of a known extinguisher.
- adrianN 8y ago
  That might be the reason why many people dislike all businesses of Microsoft's size. I for one wouldn't be happy if Google or Amazon or Apple bought Github either.
  - taipan100 8y ago
    I completely agree. The biggest issue here is that we are losing a neutral player as the top comment says. The tech world is that much more monopolistic without an independent GitHub.
- sametmax 8y ago
  EVERY single statement that contains "EVERY single" are false. Including this one. Besides, what kind of argument is that ? Some people do bad things, so it's ok to do it ? I know 5 years old that don't use this anymore.
jjuel 8y ago
I am sure no one in the company has changed since that memo leaked in 1996...
TimTheTinker 8y ago
> But let's not forget all of the moves toward a friendlier Microsoft/Linux world looks suspiciously like "Embrace" “Embrace” is happening everywhere these days. Don’t sound the alarm until you see Extend.
- RX14 8y ago
  Wsl is getting scarily close to Linux performance in benchmarks and improving fast. I don't see extend being too far away...
  - moljac024 8y ago
    WSL has horrible horrible IO performance. It's really not going anywhere until they fix it, and the fix won't be easy
    - HelloWorldInWS 8y ago
      But they don't really need to fix it. Sure, it'd be nice, but they're targeting developer machines and utilities with WSL, not a server replacement of Linux. Nobody would buy a Windows license just to serve from LAMP stacks on WSL over Azure or something. Speed requirements for dev machines are a little less stringent, and as long as they are hitting better-than-Docker numbers, they will still be providing value. Sidenote: looks like I/O performance is really not that bad in most cases already, and sometimes even faster than Linux distros like Ubuntu: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=wsl-february-2018&num=1 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=wsl-febr...
  - contextfree 8y ago
    It runs on Windows and can interop with Windows applications, that's already an extension by itself.
mihaela 8y ago
Developers that exclusively use MS stack are very similar to those exclusive to Delphi. MS and Delphi stacks are very specific in nature and very different from everything else out there. Developers stepping out of those feel very uncomfortable and unfamiliar, thus wanting to stay in. Even though the Delphi stack is very obviously dying, the resistance is great, and many people stay on the sinking ship. MS stack is live and well which gives a viable incentive to never even look over the fence. That is the problem with developers exclusive in MS stack, they are not flexible and they don't want to be. They want everything to be done "the MS way". Where does that put GH? How will it change, in what direction (to accommodate the MS stack)?
- spdegabrielle 8y ago
  Delphi might be a small community compared to JVM or MS. Is Delphi dying? I work in the M/Mumps space(healthcare), another small (almost invisible) but active community and it seems far from dying. I imagine Delphi is bigger. I wonder how long the MS stack would last without the support of MS. Would the MS stack fare as well as the Ruby stack has without Microsoft’s massive investment in turning developers into sharecroppers? (Or salesforce, scala, unreal, php, erlang, etc.)
  - justinclift 8y ago
    Personally, I wonder how ReactOS (www.reactos.org) will affect things when it finally gets to the point of being usable for general population end users. Seems like a wild card entry, which could go any number of directions. :)
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  > That is the problem with developers exclusive in MS stack, they are not flexible and they don't want to be. They want everything to be done "the MS way". And unix developers complain endlessly about any dev environment that isn't identical to what they use. Powershell gets shit because it isn't bash/core-utils (even though it's better in just about every conceivable way), Windows API gets shit for not being posix (even though posix is a crappy API), etc.
- 8y ago

tomnipotent 8y ago

Then EVERY single other business of its size has a strategy that looks like "Embrace". The only difference is that Microsoft had a memo leak.

wasx 8y ago
... which is exactly the problem. The issue is the tactic, not the company employing it. It’s just this company has a serious habit of employing those tactics, hence the distrust.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Lio 8y ago
  I'd like anyone in any business contemplating an Embrace, Extinguish strategy to know that it ends in people not trusting your company and being unwilling to work with your services. I would like to know how much it is costing Microsoft to fix that damaged reputation so that other executives will know if they do this it will end up costing at least X amount.
  - chme 8y ago
    Hmm... I would think that it will cost Microsoft a rethinking of their business strategy. If their 'Embrace' looks like 'Yes we are compatible with...' and their 'Extend' like 'If you use our layer you can also do...' then people stay sceptical. Instead their 'Embrace' should be 'How can we help you with your open source product?' and their 'Extend': 'Here are patches that fixes problems, improves performance and implement community wanted features.' It seems companies like this always try to hold the door to 'Extinguish' open.
  - contextfree 8y ago
    I really don't think reputational damage in this case came from adopting an embrace-and-extend strategy as such, but rather the monopolistic position they were in combined with specific tactics they used.
jsiepkes 8y ago
The Memo leak was just the tip of the iceberg. MS also lost multiple court cases about their anticompetitive behaviour (for example gov of US, Sun) in that era.
r00fus 8y ago
Did you forget the Extend, Extinguish parts of the strategy, or are you just paraphrasing EEE to make it sound somewhat ok?
- pitkali 8y ago
  Pretty sure he means that just seeing symptoms of Embrace is not enough to sound the alarm that it's going to be extended and extinguished. After all, what's the point of building software, if it's never embraced, aka, used?
  - zentiggr 8y ago
    The typical implication of "Embrace" in these EEE uses is not 'figure out how to work in tandem with' but more 'how can we the amoeba surround and prepare to Extinguish this'. Hence the justified caution and monitoring of a known extinguisher.
adrianN 8y ago
That might be the reason why many people dislike all businesses of Microsoft's size. I for one wouldn't be happy if Google or Amazon or Apple bought Github either.
- taipan100 8y ago
  I completely agree. The biggest issue here is that we are losing a neutral player as the top comment says. The tech world is that much more monopolistic without an independent GitHub.
sametmax 8y ago
EVERY single statement that contains "EVERY single" are false. Including this one. Besides, what kind of argument is that ? Some people do bad things, so it's ok to do it ? I know 5 years old that don't use this anymore.

jjuel 8y ago

I am sure no one in the company has changed since that memo leaked in 1996...

TimTheTinker 8y ago

> But let's not forget all of the moves toward a friendlier Microsoft/Linux world looks suspiciously like "Embrace" “Embrace” is happening everywhere these days. Don’t sound the alarm until you see Extend.

RX14 8y ago
Wsl is getting scarily close to Linux performance in benchmarks and improving fast. I don't see extend being too far away...
- moljac024 8y ago
  WSL has horrible horrible IO performance. It's really not going anywhere until they fix it, and the fix won't be easy
  - HelloWorldInWS 8y ago
    But they don't really need to fix it. Sure, it'd be nice, but they're targeting developer machines and utilities with WSL, not a server replacement of Linux. Nobody would buy a Windows license just to serve from LAMP stacks on WSL over Azure or something. Speed requirements for dev machines are a little less stringent, and as long as they are hitting better-than-Docker numbers, they will still be providing value. Sidenote: looks like I/O performance is really not that bad in most cases already, and sometimes even faster than Linux distros like Ubuntu: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=wsl-february-2018&num=1 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=wsl-febr...
- contextfree 8y ago
  It runs on Windows and can interop with Windows applications, that's already an extension by itself.

mihaela 8y ago

Developers that exclusively use MS stack are very similar to those exclusive to Delphi. MS and Delphi stacks are very specific in nature and very different from everything else out there. Developers stepping out of those feel very uncomfortable and unfamiliar, thus wanting to stay in. Even though the Delphi stack is very obviously dying, the resistance is great, and many people stay on the sinking ship. MS stack is live and well which gives a viable incentive to never even look over the fence. That is the problem with developers exclusive in MS stack, they are not flexible and they don't want to be. They want everything to be done "the MS way". Where does that put GH? How will it change, in what direction (to accommodate the MS stack)?

spdegabrielle 8y ago
Delphi might be a small community compared to JVM or MS. Is Delphi dying? I work in the M/Mumps space(healthcare), another small (almost invisible) but active community and it seems far from dying. I imagine Delphi is bigger. I wonder how long the MS stack would last without the support of MS. Would the MS stack fare as well as the Ruby stack has without Microsoft’s massive investment in turning developers into sharecroppers? (Or salesforce, scala, unreal, php, erlang, etc.)
- justinclift 8y ago
  Personally, I wonder how ReactOS (www.reactos.org) will affect things when it finally gets to the point of being usable for general population end users. Seems like a wild card entry, which could go any number of directions. :)
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
> That is the problem with developers exclusive in MS stack, they are not flexible and they don't want to be. They want everything to be done "the MS way". And unix developers complain endlessly about any dev environment that isn't identical to what they use. Powershell gets shit because it isn't bash/core-utils (even though it's better in just about every conceivable way), Windows API gets shit for not being posix (even though posix is a crappy API), etc.
8y ago