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That can't be all of it. The same change has been taking place in Germany (a country with quite comprehensive healthcare insurance), although probably not as pr

That can't be all of it. The same change has been taking place in Germany (a country with quite comprehensive healthcare insurance), although probably not as pronounced as in the US.

watwut 8y ago
The Germany attitude toward freedom for children is completely different then American one. In Germany, first graders are expected to walk to and from school by themselves. They play outside alone, and slide on giant slides while nobody cares about posted 10+ sign. They are not overprotective the way Americans are.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  Funny enough, just yesterday some German tourists watched my not-quite-2 year old slide down a giant slide in San Francisco and remarked that they don't have such big slides where they live in Germany.
  - javajosh 8y ago
    There are some seriously cool and dangerous looking playgrounds in Berlin. Many of them have ziplines, trampolines, and other long-since banned playthings. And I see kids on them almost every day.
    - scandinavegan 8y ago
      We vacationed in Berlin last summer with two kids, and that place is famous for its fantastic playgrounds. It was rare to see the same designs repeated over and over as you do in other cities, and each playground was more or less unique. As you say, stuff where you balance quite high up, but usually with a softer material on the ground than asphalt so that a fall isn't lethal. I never saw kids fall and hurt themselves, so I don't know what would happen if they fell from the maximum height, but they wouldn't die.
  - wiredfool 8y ago
    We were in Germany last summer and I was amazed that they had a 5m diving platform at a public pool. (along with 3m & 1m springboards). I had my (then) 10 and 12yr olds go for it, because I had no idea where else they'd ever get the chance to try. (OTOH, I tried the 1m springboard and got water in my ear that took days to get out. I'm not as young as I once was)
    - namibj 8y ago
      At public pay-per-use pools we sometimes also have 7.5m and 10m platforms. As well as 5m springboards. They require deeper water, and are more expensive to build, but that's about it. E.g., near cologne there is an indoor pool with at least a 7.5m and 10m platform. I don't remember if the 5m one is a board or a concrete slab. But from 5m upwards it hurts on your feet if you hit the water at the wrong angle, and it only get's worse from there.
      - wiredfool 8y ago
        It's not the building expense, it's the insurance. I remember the 3m springboard taken out of my pool in the states in the 80's, and I can't remember ever seeing a diving board in use at a pool in Ireland.
        namibj 8y ago
        Uh, no, this is the reason I assume for why only some pools in Germany have them. But I pity the american bubble wrap culture. It makes my dislike for visiting the states just stronger.
        throwawayjava 8y ago
        > But I pity the american bubble wrap culture. I don't see this in pools. 3m spring boards are still pretty common at pools in the US. My "nothing special" high school had 3m springs. It's true that the 5m,7m,10m platforms are usually only found in sportsplex-type pools. They typically come as a package. But as you mentioned in an earlier comment, 5m+ starts the get actually dangerous. Flopping from 10m or even 7m without an agitator can do serious permanent damage. IMO a platform tower above 3m (or maybe 5m) is more "expensive sports equipment" than "general public recreational equipment". I maybe could see a 5m platform as "general public recreational equipment", but 7 and 10 are definitely not. And there are just better ways to use time/money than building a 5m platform when you already have 3m spring boards. American pools are moving away from exercise and toward recreation/amusement (i.e., switching out swimming lanes for "water playgrounds" and switching out diving boards for water slides). But that's a totally different phenomenon from "bubble wrap culture"; IMO those water playgrounds are way more dangerous than traditional pools (I've seen more than one kid injure themselves pretty seriously jumping off of the water playground into ~2ft water; that would never happen in a lane-swimming pool). And personally, I've had more injuries on water slides than on 1m or 3m spring boards. So there's something annoying going on with American swimming pools, but it's not bubble wrap culture.
- bambataa 8y ago
  Germany also seems to make more of a thing out of forest kindergartens (Waldkindergarten), which sound amazing to me. Still supervised I suppose, but at least they’re outdoors.
- theandrewbailey 8y ago
  Americans need laws to affirm that their kids can walk to and from school alone. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/29/well/family/utah-passes-free-range-parenting-law.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/29/well/family/utah-passes-f...
- poulsbohemian 8y ago
  I began walking to school (about a mile) from first grade onward. I also studied in Germany as a college student. I walk two of my kids to school daily. Why? It isn't really the kids I worry about, it's the idiot adults. Around their school there are: -- School zone signs, indicating the 20MPH speed reduction area. -- Flashing yellow lights that only activate during school hours -- Middle-of-the-road barriers that indicate there is a school zone ahead -- Painted crosswalks -- Adults with crossing flags to indicate the crosswalk. Sometimes they even wear orange safety vests. -- The speed limit within a half-mile in all directions is 25MPH Guess what? Cars still blow through in excess of 40MPH, even with kids present. I've been nearly run over on multiple occasions. This is in a rural ("family values") community. It's pure anarchy, that's why I don't let my kids walk to school alone.
jraby3 8y ago
I think a lot of people have moved to cities from suburbs. With the amount of traffic nearby I can't leave my kids alone the way my parents did with me.
- ethbro 8y ago
  Is traffic really that deadly? I feel like urban crosswalks are a solved problem, even for young kids.
  - matt_the_bass 8y ago
    You’ve never walked in my city I guess. Last year there was a fatal car accident. The driver was going so fast down a narrow, one lane road that when he hit a car pulling out of the driveway, the car flipped over. Imagine how pedestrians feel about that or parents feel about that to their kids.
    - ethbro 8y ago
      There were about 400k accidents, 20k serious injuries, 1,500 total traffic fatalities, and 250 pedestrian fatalities in my current state last year. Out of a population of 10.5 million. Which puts the per capita likelihood at 3.8, 0.2, 0.015, 0.0024% respectively, per year. Parents have a right to their own decisions, but retarding a child's growth because of a fear of something that's only 20x as likely as getting struck by lightning? Personally, that seems literally insane. If my child were to be killed by a driver, I would mourn for the rest of my life, but at least I'd know they lived in the time they had on this Earth.
      - matt_the_bass 8y ago
        I think that’s fair if personal action had no impact on the rates. Consider the possibility that these numbers are in part born from our own protections to those events. For example, I’ve taught my kids to look before crossing the street, what’s out for cars speeding on side streets and don’t run after toys rolling into the street. Without those guidelines, I’m certain they would have come close to injury or death. Being struck by lightening is a poor comparison since that is almost entirely avoidable with actions that most people follow subconsciously: they don’t want to walk through a field in the pooring rain. Chance of death from being run over by a cruise ship is also low. People generally don’t want to go swimming where they are transiting. Do you encourage your kids the jump of the pier when the ship is docking? Chance of death from being hit by a TVG is pretty low. They only run on tracks with protected right of way, so it’s difficult to find oneself on their tracks. Do you encourage your kids to climb that fence and walk those tracks? Death from traffic is not quite the same, but similar.

That can't be all of it. The same change has been taking place in Germany (a country with quite comprehensive healthcare insurance), although probably not as pronounced as in the US.

watwut 8y ago

The Germany attitude toward freedom for children is completely different then American one. In Germany, first graders are expected to walk to and from school by themselves. They play outside alone, and slide on giant slides while nobody cares about posted 10+ sign. They are not overprotective the way Americans are.

jacobolus 8y ago
Funny enough, just yesterday some German tourists watched my not-quite-2 year old slide down a giant slide in San Francisco and remarked that they don't have such big slides where they live in Germany.
- javajosh 8y ago
  There are some seriously cool and dangerous looking playgrounds in Berlin. Many of them have ziplines, trampolines, and other long-since banned playthings. And I see kids on them almost every day.
  - scandinavegan 8y ago
    We vacationed in Berlin last summer with two kids, and that place is famous for its fantastic playgrounds. It was rare to see the same designs repeated over and over as you do in other cities, and each playground was more or less unique. As you say, stuff where you balance quite high up, but usually with a softer material on the ground than asphalt so that a fall isn't lethal. I never saw kids fall and hurt themselves, so I don't know what would happen if they fell from the maximum height, but they wouldn't die.
- wiredfool 8y ago
  We were in Germany last summer and I was amazed that they had a 5m diving platform at a public pool. (along with 3m & 1m springboards). I had my (then) 10 and 12yr olds go for it, because I had no idea where else they'd ever get the chance to try. (OTOH, I tried the 1m springboard and got water in my ear that took days to get out. I'm not as young as I once was)
  - namibj 8y ago
    At public pay-per-use pools we sometimes also have 7.5m and 10m platforms. As well as 5m springboards. They require deeper water, and are more expensive to build, but that's about it. E.g., near cologne there is an indoor pool with at least a 7.5m and 10m platform. I don't remember if the 5m one is a board or a concrete slab. But from 5m upwards it hurts on your feet if you hit the water at the wrong angle, and it only get's worse from there.
    - wiredfool 8y ago
      It's not the building expense, it's the insurance. I remember the 3m springboard taken out of my pool in the states in the 80's, and I can't remember ever seeing a diving board in use at a pool in Ireland.
      - namibj 8y ago
        Uh, no, this is the reason I assume for why only some pools in Germany have them. But I pity the american bubble wrap culture. It makes my dislike for visiting the states just stronger.
        throwawayjava 8y ago
        > But I pity the american bubble wrap culture. I don't see this in pools. 3m spring boards are still pretty common at pools in the US. My "nothing special" high school had 3m springs. It's true that the 5m,7m,10m platforms are usually only found in sportsplex-type pools. They typically come as a package. But as you mentioned in an earlier comment, 5m+ starts the get actually dangerous. Flopping from 10m or even 7m without an agitator can do serious permanent damage. IMO a platform tower above 3m (or maybe 5m) is more "expensive sports equipment" than "general public recreational equipment". I maybe could see a 5m platform as "general public recreational equipment", but 7 and 10 are definitely not. And there are just better ways to use time/money than building a 5m platform when you already have 3m spring boards. American pools are moving away from exercise and toward recreation/amusement (i.e., switching out swimming lanes for "water playgrounds" and switching out diving boards for water slides). But that's a totally different phenomenon from "bubble wrap culture"; IMO those water playgrounds are way more dangerous than traditional pools (I've seen more than one kid injure themselves pretty seriously jumping off of the water playground into ~2ft water; that would never happen in a lane-swimming pool). And personally, I've had more injuries on water slides than on 1m or 3m spring boards. So there's something annoying going on with American swimming pools, but it's not bubble wrap culture.
bambataa 8y ago
Germany also seems to make more of a thing out of forest kindergartens (Waldkindergarten), which sound amazing to me. Still supervised I suppose, but at least they’re outdoors.
theandrewbailey 8y ago
Americans need laws to affirm that their kids can walk to and from school alone. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/29/well/family/utah-passes-free-range-parenting-law.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/29/well/family/utah-passes-f...
poulsbohemian 8y ago
I began walking to school (about a mile) from first grade onward. I also studied in Germany as a college student. I walk two of my kids to school daily. Why? It isn't really the kids I worry about, it's the idiot adults. Around their school there are: -- School zone signs, indicating the 20MPH speed reduction area. -- Flashing yellow lights that only activate during school hours -- Middle-of-the-road barriers that indicate there is a school zone ahead -- Painted crosswalks -- Adults with crossing flags to indicate the crosswalk. Sometimes they even wear orange safety vests. -- The speed limit within a half-mile in all directions is 25MPH Guess what? Cars still blow through in excess of 40MPH, even with kids present. I've been nearly run over on multiple occasions. This is in a rural ("family values") community. It's pure anarchy, that's why I don't let my kids walk to school alone.

jraby3 8y ago

I think a lot of people have moved to cities from suburbs. With the amount of traffic nearby I can't leave my kids alone the way my parents did with me.

ethbro 8y ago
Is traffic really that deadly? I feel like urban crosswalks are a solved problem, even for young kids.
- matt_the_bass 8y ago
  You’ve never walked in my city I guess. Last year there was a fatal car accident. The driver was going so fast down a narrow, one lane road that when he hit a car pulling out of the driveway, the car flipped over. Imagine how pedestrians feel about that or parents feel about that to their kids.
  - ethbro 8y ago
    There were about 400k accidents, 20k serious injuries, 1,500 total traffic fatalities, and 250 pedestrian fatalities in my current state last year. Out of a population of 10.5 million. Which puts the per capita likelihood at 3.8, 0.2, 0.015, 0.0024% respectively, per year. Parents have a right to their own decisions, but retarding a child's growth because of a fear of something that's only 20x as likely as getting struck by lightning? Personally, that seems literally insane. If my child were to be killed by a driver, I would mourn for the rest of my life, but at least I'd know they lived in the time they had on this Earth.
    - matt_the_bass 8y ago
      I think that’s fair if personal action had no impact on the rates. Consider the possibility that these numbers are in part born from our own protections to those events. For example, I’ve taught my kids to look before crossing the street, what’s out for cars speeding on side streets and don’t run after toys rolling into the street. Without those guidelines, I’m certain they would have come close to injury or death. Being struck by lightening is a poor comparison since that is almost entirely avoidable with actions that most people follow subconsciously: they don’t want to walk through a field in the pooring rain. Chance of death from being run over by a cruise ship is also low. People generally don’t want to go swimming where they are transiting. Do you encourage your kids the jump of the pier when the ship is docking? Chance of death from being hit by a TVG is pretty low. They only run on tracks with protected right of way, so it’s difficult to find oneself on their tracks. Do you encourage your kids to climb that fence and walk those tracks? Death from traffic is not quite the same, but similar.