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The Eurozone predicament is complicated. There are merits and demerits to centralisation. We should all be wary of extrapolating problems with one large system

The Eurozone predicament is complicated. There are merits and demerits to centralisation. We should all be wary of extrapolating problems with one large system to all large systems. This is a convoluted way of refusing to answer my final point, perhaps you have no answer. But it nicely serves to prove my other points, so I can't be too annoyed about it. Viz. the entire EU project is based on a totalitarian ideology that runs like this: "Most people are stupid, base and racist. Giving them a choice about what happens is therefore very bad. The best social outcomes arise from massive centralisation of power in unchecked bureaucracies." You are a prime example of this - you just asserted that most people in the UK are racist because they were concerned about the volume of immigration, although the UK is in fact the most ethnically diverse nation in Europe. You have no evidence to support such an astounding generalisation, and race-driven crime is actually very rare there. I mean you'd get a lot further arguing that most Americans are racist, even though that would be an absurd statement too. Polish isn't even a race, Polish people are white! The reason it's impossible to disentangle loss of sovereignty from the question of who you're losing it to, is because centralisation of power inevitably corrupts people, and therefore who exactly benefits from such a loss is in many ways irrelevant. They'll do things that are at best a good fit for only one section of the population they control, and at worst are just a bad idea for everyone, but the nature of centralised power is that people can do a lot of damage in a short amount of time, and they're less willing to let go of it at the end. Notice how even the EU's own institutions and biggest supporters are currently up in arms about the Selmayr affair. But who could be surprised, really? It's exactly the behaviour you'd expect to see.

padthai 8y ago
Decentralization of power is not always better. It is one of the reasons that China could improve its economy faster than India, for example. Projects like Galileo are impossible without centralization. If the EU did not exist Trump could bully his way in Europe. And so on. > You are a prime example of this - you just asserted that most people in the UK are racist because they were concerned about the volume of immigration, although the UK is in fact the most ethnically diverse nation in Europe. [...] Polish isn't even a race, Polish people are white! Ethnicity is much more than looking alike. Not in Europe, nor in Asia, nor in Africa, nor in America (N or S). And a good % of people with Polish ancestry can be easily recognized in UK. They are not that similar. And by the way, UK is not the most ethnically diverse country in Europe, the EU, or Western Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...
- repolfx 8y ago
  That table lists Russia and the Congo as more ethnically diverse than the UK. OK, if you define ethnicity in such a way that it has no correlation with skin colour or any of the traditional aspects of racism, then sure. Maybe there are more ethnic tribes or something in the Congo than the UK. Now go define it in the way people actually mean when they talk about racism, and see what happens. Projects like Galileo are impossible without centralization That's clearly nonsense. The International Space Station is not the product of a giant centralised power structure. It's the result of an international collaboration amongst governments, none of them able to control the others. And the ISS is much more complex an endeavour than Galileo.
  - padthai 8y ago
    Look, (ethnic) Russian, (ethnic) Caucasians and Tatars do not look alike. Same in Congo with the Bantu, Pygmy and Nilotic. You are not even choosing good examples for your arguments. Most ethnics conflicts in the world might not even skin colour related because they occur between neighbors. Pakistan/India, the Balkans, Azerbaijan/Armenia etc. But hey, whatever fits your narrative.
    - repolfx 8y ago
      People from the north and south of England can often be told apart by how they look and sound, and north/south bias is a thing - does that make them different "ethnicities"? I mean, the whole idea that the UK is a massively racist country is so silly nobody has tried to defend it, have they? As defined in a normal way - people of very different skin colours and origins getting along next to each other - the UK does very well.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
dpwm 8y ago
> Polish isn't even a race, Polish people are white! Polish is an ethnicity. Discrimination against somebody because of their ethnicity is racial discrimination at least according to the UN definition. > most people in the UK are racist because they were concerned about the volume of immigration. Most people didn't vote for Brexit. Only about 29% of the population did. I'm sure some of them are neither racist nor stupid.
- repolfx 8y ago
  A definition of 'racism' that includes "lots of people who look identical to me have turned up and now it takes ages to get a doctors appointment" is useless and deserves to be ignored - which it was, as evidenced by the population voting to leave despite being told it was "racist" to leave a union made up almost entirely of white people. Most people didn't vote for Brexit. Only about 29% of the population did Exclude the people who can't vote because they're children or not actually citizens, and you get a 72% turnout, the largest in history. Your claim is worded in such a way that it's technically correct whilst simultaneously being wildly misleading (who knows what 5 year olds think of the EU, and there are plenty of stories of naturalised Polish immigrants voting to leave...)

padthai 8y ago

Decentralization of power is not always better. It is one of the reasons that China could improve its economy faster than India, for example. Projects like Galileo are impossible without centralization. If the EU did not exist Trump could bully his way in Europe. And so on. > You are a prime example of this - you just asserted that most people in the UK are racist because they were concerned about the volume of immigration, although the UK is in fact the most ethnically diverse nation in Europe. [...] Polish isn't even a race, Polish people are white! Ethnicity is much more than looking alike. Not in Europe, nor in Asia, nor in Africa, nor in America (N or S). And a good % of people with Polish ancestry can be easily recognized in UK. They are not that similar. And by the way, UK is not the most ethnically diverse country in Europe, the EU, or Western Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...

repolfx 8y ago
That table lists Russia and the Congo as more ethnically diverse than the UK. OK, if you define ethnicity in such a way that it has no correlation with skin colour or any of the traditional aspects of racism, then sure. Maybe there are more ethnic tribes or something in the Congo than the UK. Now go define it in the way people actually mean when they talk about racism, and see what happens. Projects like Galileo are impossible without centralization That's clearly nonsense. The International Space Station is not the product of a giant centralised power structure. It's the result of an international collaboration amongst governments, none of them able to control the others. And the ISS is much more complex an endeavour than Galileo.
- padthai 8y ago
  Look, (ethnic) Russian, (ethnic) Caucasians and Tatars do not look alike. Same in Congo with the Bantu, Pygmy and Nilotic. You are not even choosing good examples for your arguments. Most ethnics conflicts in the world might not even skin colour related because they occur between neighbors. Pakistan/India, the Balkans, Azerbaijan/Armenia etc. But hey, whatever fits your narrative.
  - repolfx 8y ago
    People from the north and south of England can often be told apart by how they look and sound, and north/south bias is a thing - does that make them different "ethnicities"? I mean, the whole idea that the UK is a massively racist country is so silly nobody has tried to defend it, have they? As defined in a normal way - people of very different skin colours and origins getting along next to each other - the UK does very well.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]

dpwm 8y ago

> Polish isn't even a race, Polish people are white! Polish is an ethnicity. Discrimination against somebody because of their ethnicity is racial discrimination at least according to the UN definition. > most people in the UK are racist because they were concerned about the volume of immigration. Most people didn't vote for Brexit. Only about 29% of the population did. I'm sure some of them are neither racist nor stupid.

repolfx 8y ago
A definition of 'racism' that includes "lots of people who look identical to me have turned up and now it takes ages to get a doctors appointment" is useless and deserves to be ignored - which it was, as evidenced by the population voting to leave despite being told it was "racist" to leave a union made up almost entirely of white people. Most people didn't vote for Brexit. Only about 29% of the population did Exclude the people who can't vote because they're children or not actually citizens, and you get a 72% turnout, the largest in history. Your claim is worded in such a way that it's technically correct whilst simultaneously being wildly misleading (who knows what 5 year olds think of the EU, and there are plenty of stories of naturalised Polish immigrants voting to leave...)