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'Police now move people on at 23:00. Rubbish lorries, which had previously cleared up when the partygoers left in the early hours, have been rescheduled for the

by CamTin 8y ago

'Police now move people on at 23:00. Rubbish lorries, which had previously cleared up when the partygoers left in the early hours, have been rescheduled for the morning, and steps that provided seating for gatherers have now been filled with plant boxes' OK fine about rescheduling the garbage trucks, but is this really a success? A vibrant public space has been neutered by more intrusive policing and architectural changes that encourage people to stay away? I'm somewhat sympathetic to the people in these apartments, but if this has been going on for 20 years (and why 20? why not 200?) then property values should already have adjusted. If you're living here, it's because you made the calculation about the noise and decided to rent or buy anyway, or else you didn't, and why is that the City of Barcelona's problem?

louthy 8y ago
100% agree with you. Often the reason people move in to these areas is the lively bustling local culture. Then the complaints come which sanitise the area, killing its spirit. This has been happening a lot in London as the tide of gentrification washes in and sucks the life out of the local culture. A really sad state of affairs
- narag 8y ago
  So you believe that local culture consist of a lot of people getting drunk and shouting? This has nothing to do with gentrification. Most neighborhoods that suffer this problem are working or middle class. Try doing that in rich quarters and see what happens. The problem started long ago, aprox. 30 years. You could open a "tavern" with very few permits needed (and limited hours) or you could open a "pub", that you must isolate and comply with many regulations, and you set your hours, no matter the council. Guess what many did and got a quick buck. Authorities turned a blind eye for the sake of tourism. When hours are enforced, people just go shop strong alcohol and drink in the streets. That generated a very bad problem years ago and there is a law against that.
  - louthy 8y ago
    If you move in to a noisy/lively area and then start making noise complaints, then in my opinion you’re the one at fault. If this has been going on for 20 years then it can hardly be considered an ‘unknown’ > So you believe that local culture consist of a lot of people getting drunk and shouting? Well done for reducing it with your prejudices, this is local cafe culture, which is very social. It isn’t only ‘being noisy and drunk’, that’s just a symptom. It clearly has a positive social cohesion story behind it too. And what you deem to be culture may not be what others do. But regardless, it exists and was there before you. So, what right do you have to get rid of it? Granted, if 100% of residents don’t want it, then that’s an argument to do something about it. But, a lot of the time it’s a handful of very vociferous residents that destroy what the majority want to keep. If I moved to an area with a noisy local culture and found I couldn’t deal with it, I’d move; I wouldn’t try to bring an end to that culture.
    - narag 8y ago
      I'm not reducing anything, that's exactly what people complains about. You don't seem to understand that the locals are the people complaining, not the drunkards. The locals are people that are living there since forever and many of them can't choose to move. The drinkers aren't locals. They very much care not to behave like that in their own neighborhoods so they go elsewhere to make noise.
      - louthy 8y ago
        > You don't seem to understand that the locals are the people complaining, not the drunkards. The locals are people that are living there since forever and many of them can't choose to move. Can you provide evidence for your assertions? I see none of what you claim in the article. Are all locals complaining? Or a few of them? Have the locals really lived there forever? Where’s the proof? Ever lasting life aside, I suspect you’re exaggerating and the vast majority will have moved there within the past 20 years. And how do you know the drinkers aren’t locals? Have you met them? I note from your profile you’re not from the area, so how can you be so sure there aren’t any locals there? How local do you need to be to be allowed to stay up late and talk in any particular area? Should they live on the same square? Or, within a few streets? Should there be special police officers checking how local you are? But anyway, my comments were mostly about the general problem of conflict between day and night walkers, not just this specific incident.
narag 8y ago
The cities must apply the law. The law says you cannot make so much noise when people tries to rest. That's all. There are plenty of hours in the day to make noise without disturbing others and breaking laws. Why has this abuse being running for 20 years? That's a good question. But if someone threw garbage on your property, your answer won't be that "property values should already have adjusted". You just call the police, don't you?
- louthy 8y ago
  > There are plenty of hours in the day to make noise without disturbing others and breaking laws. I really hate that attitude. Not everyone works, sleeps, awakes at the same time. People who work night shifts or are natural night owls should have just as much right to enjoy their hours of awakeness as anybody else. Why are the daylight hours ‘OK for noise’, yet the evenings aren’t? I’m a natural night owl and sometimes get awoken early by rubbish trucks, or just noisy people, shouldn’t I have the same rights? If you’re a light sleeper, get some ear plugs
  - wruza 8y ago
    If you want night parties, vote for it until it is allowed or get some isolated nightclubs. Status quo is that most people sleep at night (and mostly drunk if not) and that’s important. It is changeable, but not by simply ignoring laws and health orgs. Earplugs don’t save from lowfreq noise that goes through walls, floors and beds almost intact. Disclosure: I’m sleeping from 5 to 10 times a week, not having any fixed time as a ‘morning’. (edit: I often confuse disclaimer with disclosure)
    - louthy 8y ago
      > If you want night parties, vote for it until it is allowed So, minority opinion should always be ignored? > or get some isolated nightclubs. One of the major problems in London in the past 5 years has been the smoking ban. So these nightclubs which were previously sealed now have people outside smoking, which has caused additional conflict. It's not as simple as isolating a club or bar. > Status quo is that most people sleep at night (and mostly drunk if not) Wow. So people awake are night are drunks? Fantastic. They're not awake for any other reason? Like they did a night shift and want to eat late? Or they want to go shopping when they're not at work? Or ... /* lists all the reasons people do stuff during the day */ This notion that we should be awake and work during the day and sleep during the night is one that's been forced upon us. If you look into the sleeping pattern of the middle ages you'd realise it wasn't always like this, and we're not all like that [1] > Earplugs don’t save from lowfreq noise that goes through walls, floors and beds almost intact. I've used earplugs when in places which are noisy, I have found they're absolutely fine for this purpose. It's usually mid and high pitched sounds that are more jarring if you're trying to sleep (the human voice). Things like music which is repetitive is quite easy to tune out because of its repetitive nature. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783
ghaff 8y ago
So keeping the noise down late at night now constitutes neutering a vibrant public space? Living in a city may require tolerating noise and crowds but it also requires being mindful of how your activities affect others.
- CamTin 8y ago
  "...steps that provided seating for gatherers have now been filled with plant boxes" This is the real tragedy, since it is a change that doesn't apply only at night. It makes the square less valuable to people 24 hours a day.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    It makes it less valuable to transients, and more valuable to the residents.
    - CamTin 8y ago
      Transients and anybody who would like to be outside in the square, including residents who live near the square, but it's not like it's "their" square. It isn't a Costco parking lot in Fort Worth, it's a square in Barcelona. The whole point of it is to be an outdoor public space where people can congregate and enjoy themselves.
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        > The whole point of it is to be an outdoor public space where people can congregate and enjoy themselves. People can! Following the law and how it relates to noise pollution. Rights are a balance. Disclaimer: US citizen who has spent more than a few weeks in Barcelona, and has seen how people abuse the commons firsthand
        balfirevic 8y ago
        Well, they can't, not on those steps, even if they are quiet as a fly in the middle of the day. That was the CamTin's point.
omn1 8y ago
> If you're living here, it's because you made the calculation about the noise and decided to rent or buy anyway These plazas are commonly located in the old town, so a lot of inhabitants might have inherited the properties. Also, it's sometimes hard to judge how loud an area is really going to be before signing the contract - especially the night-life. I recently rented a new apartment in a crowded street and while it was certainly a mistake to move here, I didn't expect it to be _that_ loud since when we were there for the apartment viewings there were also a lot of other interested parties and it was distracting from the street noise. I really wish there would be a project to distribute those noise-tracking devices and make the realtime data available to the public. It would definitely influence buying/renting decisions and help for city planning as I think this serious problem is only tackled on the surface and it brings down quality of living.
- CamTin 8y ago
  Totally agree on making this kind of data better available. This way, everybody could have the city they want, with people segregating themselves into neighborhoods depending on the kind of night-life they are looking for.
- gvurrdon 8y ago
  It can indeed be hard to judge, and situations may change. Before moving to my current house I asked around and got the impression that it was fairly quiet late at night; this turned out to be mostly true. But, a new hotel was completed after I moved and it turns out that my street is the easiest route for drunken guests to take back to that hotel if they've been out on the town.
- k_lander 8y ago
  This is a fantastic idea and is badly needed in residential neighbourhoods of cities all around the world.
- abalone 8y ago
  Possibly there's a simpler solution. A few years ago San Francisco passed a law requiring developers to notify potential residents if there is a nearby music venue, and also protecting those venues from nuisance lawsuits.[1] Perhaps that could serve as a model for public spaces as well. [1] https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/S-F-supes-back-music-venues-against-noise-6244544.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/S-F-supes-back-music-...
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
I live on a noisy New York street. Replacing seating with potted plants appears, to me as well, a sloppy response to the problem. (Re-scheduling trash collection, on the other hand, was brilliant.) Modern technology allows for acoustically isolating virtually any kind of housing. (Provided the windows are shut.) Acoustic retrofitting is expensive, but so is losing the tax revenue from a vibrant public space. A better solution would have involved reducing noise levels inside residents’ homes without smothering the plaza. (Reminds me of a poster I saw at a club, once. Paraphrasing, “Al sees apartment. Al sees club. Al rents apartment. Al spends all his free time making noise complaints. Don’t be Al.”)
- spodek 8y ago
  Does keeping your windows shut all the time in New York mean you have an air conditioner on all summer? Could there be other problems with everyone using air conditioning all the time?
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > windows shut all the time Windows don’t need to be shut all the time. Just when I’m sleeping, or want some quiet. (I don’t live in an acoustically-isolated environment, either.) (That said, I and most people I know in Manhattan run air conditioners more or less constantly, while we are in the apartment, all summer.)
- 6t6t6t6 8y ago
  > so is losing the tax revenue If you take into account that most of the people sitting on the floor of the square bought their beers in the convenience store and probably paid less than one Euro for each of them, I don't think that the state will loose a massive amount of income via taxes. On the other hand, I know that measuring everything by the economical peformance is a really common thing to do in the other side of the Atlantic, but the neigbours have the right to be able to sleep, even with the windows open. Those squares are not zoned as industrial area, so they are meant to be silent at night. By law.
atlantic 8y ago
This isn't a vibrant public space, it's just a space full of noisy foreign tourists who are making a racket while the locals are trying to sleep, because they have to go to work the next day.
lemming 8y ago
If you're living here, it's because you made the calculation about the noise and decided to rent or buy anyway, or else you didn't, and why is that the City of Barcelona's problem? I lived in Barcelona for 5 years, and for the first 18 months my wife and I lived right by the Santa Maria del Mar, a church in a square that is one of the main tourist areas in Barcelona. Our neighbours in the building included an old couple (80's, probably) who had lived there forever, and a 92 year old lady who was born in the building. Our landlords had inherited the place from their parents, who had been there forever too. Barcelona is that sort of place, it has changed incredibly quickly - before the olympics in '92, apparently it was unsafe to walk around that area during the day, but in the last decade or so it's become super hip. We didn't complain, we just moved, but I would absolutely support reducing the nightlife around that area - the noise was insane. And it was pretty much all caused by tourists, not locals, and Barcelona is on a big drive to prioritise the locals in general. Reducing the nightlife, or even just keeping the noise at night to reasonable levels, wouldn't make the space any less vibrant during the day or even at night at reasonable hours, and would give a lot of relief to residents.

by CamTin 8y ago

louthy 8y ago

100% agree with you. Often the reason people move in to these areas is the lively bustling local culture. Then the complaints come which sanitise the area, killing its spirit. This has been happening a lot in London as the tide of gentrification washes in and sucks the life out of the local culture. A really sad state of affairs

narag 8y ago
So you believe that local culture consist of a lot of people getting drunk and shouting? This has nothing to do with gentrification. Most neighborhoods that suffer this problem are working or middle class. Try doing that in rich quarters and see what happens. The problem started long ago, aprox. 30 years. You could open a "tavern" with very few permits needed (and limited hours) or you could open a "pub", that you must isolate and comply with many regulations, and you set your hours, no matter the council. Guess what many did and got a quick buck. Authorities turned a blind eye for the sake of tourism. When hours are enforced, people just go shop strong alcohol and drink in the streets. That generated a very bad problem years ago and there is a law against that.
- louthy 8y ago
  If you move in to a noisy/lively area and then start making noise complaints, then in my opinion you’re the one at fault. If this has been going on for 20 years then it can hardly be considered an ‘unknown’ > So you believe that local culture consist of a lot of people getting drunk and shouting? Well done for reducing it with your prejudices, this is local cafe culture, which is very social. It isn’t only ‘being noisy and drunk’, that’s just a symptom. It clearly has a positive social cohesion story behind it too. And what you deem to be culture may not be what others do. But regardless, it exists and was there before you. So, what right do you have to get rid of it? Granted, if 100% of residents don’t want it, then that’s an argument to do something about it. But, a lot of the time it’s a handful of very vociferous residents that destroy what the majority want to keep. If I moved to an area with a noisy local culture and found I couldn’t deal with it, I’d move; I wouldn’t try to bring an end to that culture.
  - narag 8y ago
    I'm not reducing anything, that's exactly what people complains about. You don't seem to understand that the locals are the people complaining, not the drunkards. The locals are people that are living there since forever and many of them can't choose to move. The drinkers aren't locals. They very much care not to behave like that in their own neighborhoods so they go elsewhere to make noise.
    - louthy 8y ago
      > You don't seem to understand that the locals are the people complaining, not the drunkards. The locals are people that are living there since forever and many of them can't choose to move. Can you provide evidence for your assertions? I see none of what you claim in the article. Are all locals complaining? Or a few of them? Have the locals really lived there forever? Where’s the proof? Ever lasting life aside, I suspect you’re exaggerating and the vast majority will have moved there within the past 20 years. And how do you know the drinkers aren’t locals? Have you met them? I note from your profile you’re not from the area, so how can you be so sure there aren’t any locals there? How local do you need to be to be allowed to stay up late and talk in any particular area? Should they live on the same square? Or, within a few streets? Should there be special police officers checking how local you are? But anyway, my comments were mostly about the general problem of conflict between day and night walkers, not just this specific incident.

narag 8y ago

The cities must apply the law. The law says you cannot make so much noise when people tries to rest. That's all. There are plenty of hours in the day to make noise without disturbing others and breaking laws. Why has this abuse being running for 20 years? That's a good question. But if someone threw garbage on your property, your answer won't be that "property values should already have adjusted". You just call the police, don't you?

louthy 8y ago
> There are plenty of hours in the day to make noise without disturbing others and breaking laws. I really hate that attitude. Not everyone works, sleeps, awakes at the same time. People who work night shifts or are natural night owls should have just as much right to enjoy their hours of awakeness as anybody else. Why are the daylight hours ‘OK for noise’, yet the evenings aren’t? I’m a natural night owl and sometimes get awoken early by rubbish trucks, or just noisy people, shouldn’t I have the same rights? If you’re a light sleeper, get some ear plugs
- wruza 8y ago
  If you want night parties, vote for it until it is allowed or get some isolated nightclubs. Status quo is that most people sleep at night (and mostly drunk if not) and that’s important. It is changeable, but not by simply ignoring laws and health orgs. Earplugs don’t save from lowfreq noise that goes through walls, floors and beds almost intact. Disclosure: I’m sleeping from 5 to 10 times a week, not having any fixed time as a ‘morning’. (edit: I often confuse disclaimer with disclosure)
  - louthy 8y ago
    > If you want night parties, vote for it until it is allowed So, minority opinion should always be ignored? > or get some isolated nightclubs. One of the major problems in London in the past 5 years has been the smoking ban. So these nightclubs which were previously sealed now have people outside smoking, which has caused additional conflict. It's not as simple as isolating a club or bar. > Status quo is that most people sleep at night (and mostly drunk if not) Wow. So people awake are night are drunks? Fantastic. They're not awake for any other reason? Like they did a night shift and want to eat late? Or they want to go shopping when they're not at work? Or ... /* lists all the reasons people do stuff during the day */ This notion that we should be awake and work during the day and sleep during the night is one that's been forced upon us. If you look into the sleeping pattern of the middle ages you'd realise it wasn't always like this, and we're not all like that [1] > Earplugs don’t save from lowfreq noise that goes through walls, floors and beds almost intact. I've used earplugs when in places which are noisy, I have found they're absolutely fine for this purpose. It's usually mid and high pitched sounds that are more jarring if you're trying to sleep (the human voice). Things like music which is repetitive is quite easy to tune out because of its repetitive nature. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783

ghaff 8y ago

So keeping the noise down late at night now constitutes neutering a vibrant public space? Living in a city may require tolerating noise and crowds but it also requires being mindful of how your activities affect others.

CamTin 8y ago
"...steps that provided seating for gatherers have now been filled with plant boxes" This is the real tragedy, since it is a change that doesn't apply only at night. It makes the square less valuable to people 24 hours a day.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  It makes it less valuable to transients, and more valuable to the residents.
  - CamTin 8y ago
    Transients and anybody who would like to be outside in the square, including residents who live near the square, but it's not like it's "their" square. It isn't a Costco parking lot in Fort Worth, it's a square in Barcelona. The whole point of it is to be an outdoor public space where people can congregate and enjoy themselves.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      > The whole point of it is to be an outdoor public space where people can congregate and enjoy themselves. People can! Following the law and how it relates to noise pollution. Rights are a balance. Disclaimer: US citizen who has spent more than a few weeks in Barcelona, and has seen how people abuse the commons firsthand
      - balfirevic 8y ago
        Well, they can't, not on those steps, even if they are quiet as a fly in the middle of the day. That was the CamTin's point.

omn1 8y ago

> If you're living here, it's because you made the calculation about the noise and decided to rent or buy anyway These plazas are commonly located in the old town, so a lot of inhabitants might have inherited the properties. Also, it's sometimes hard to judge how loud an area is really going to be before signing the contract - especially the night-life. I recently rented a new apartment in a crowded street and while it was certainly a mistake to move here, I didn't expect it to be _that_ loud since when we were there for the apartment viewings there were also a lot of other interested parties and it was distracting from the street noise. I really wish there would be a project to distribute those noise-tracking devices and make the realtime data available to the public. It would definitely influence buying/renting decisions and help for city planning as I think this serious problem is only tackled on the surface and it brings down quality of living.

CamTin 8y ago
Totally agree on making this kind of data better available. This way, everybody could have the city they want, with people segregating themselves into neighborhoods depending on the kind of night-life they are looking for.
gvurrdon 8y ago
It can indeed be hard to judge, and situations may change. Before moving to my current house I asked around and got the impression that it was fairly quiet late at night; this turned out to be mostly true. But, a new hotel was completed after I moved and it turns out that my street is the easiest route for drunken guests to take back to that hotel if they've been out on the town.
k_lander 8y ago
This is a fantastic idea and is badly needed in residential neighbourhoods of cities all around the world.
abalone 8y ago
Possibly there's a simpler solution. A few years ago San Francisco passed a law requiring developers to notify potential residents if there is a nearby music venue, and also protecting those venues from nuisance lawsuits.[1] Perhaps that could serve as a model for public spaces as well. [1] https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/S-F-supes-back-music-venues-against-noise-6244544.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/S-F-supes-back-music-...

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

I live on a noisy New York street. Replacing seating with potted plants appears, to me as well, a sloppy response to the problem. (Re-scheduling trash collection, on the other hand, was brilliant.) Modern technology allows for acoustically isolating virtually any kind of housing. (Provided the windows are shut.) Acoustic retrofitting is expensive, but so is losing the tax revenue from a vibrant public space. A better solution would have involved reducing noise levels inside residents’ homes without smothering the plaza. (Reminds me of a poster I saw at a club, once. Paraphrasing, “Al sees apartment. Al sees club. Al rents apartment. Al spends all his free time making noise complaints. Don’t be Al.”)

spodek 8y ago
Does keeping your windows shut all the time in New York mean you have an air conditioner on all summer? Could there be other problems with everyone using air conditioning all the time?
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > windows shut all the time Windows don’t need to be shut all the time. Just when I’m sleeping, or want some quiet. (I don’t live in an acoustically-isolated environment, either.) (That said, I and most people I know in Manhattan run air conditioners more or less constantly, while we are in the apartment, all summer.)
6t6t6t6 8y ago
> so is losing the tax revenue If you take into account that most of the people sitting on the floor of the square bought their beers in the convenience store and probably paid less than one Euro for each of them, I don't think that the state will loose a massive amount of income via taxes. On the other hand, I know that measuring everything by the economical peformance is a really common thing to do in the other side of the Atlantic, but the neigbours have the right to be able to sleep, even with the windows open. Those squares are not zoned as industrial area, so they are meant to be silent at night. By law.

atlantic 8y ago

This isn't a vibrant public space, it's just a space full of noisy foreign tourists who are making a racket while the locals are trying to sleep, because they have to go to work the next day.

lemming 8y ago

If you're living here, it's because you made the calculation about the noise and decided to rent or buy anyway, or else you didn't, and why is that the City of Barcelona's problem? I lived in Barcelona for 5 years, and for the first 18 months my wife and I lived right by the Santa Maria del Mar, a church in a square that is one of the main tourist areas in Barcelona. Our neighbours in the building included an old couple (80's, probably) who had lived there forever, and a 92 year old lady who was born in the building. Our landlords had inherited the place from their parents, who had been there forever too. Barcelona is that sort of place, it has changed incredibly quickly - before the olympics in '92, apparently it was unsafe to walk around that area during the day, but in the last decade or so it's become super hip. We didn't complain, we just moved, but I would absolutely support reducing the nightlife around that area - the noise was insane. And it was pretty much all caused by tourists, not locals, and Barcelona is on a big drive to prioritise the locals in general. Reducing the nightlife, or even just keeping the noise at night to reasonable levels, wouldn't make the space any less vibrant during the day or even at night at reasonable hours, and would give a lot of relief to residents.