7 ms·

I see so many forum discussions where posters criticise the poor for their 'weak' decisions and effectively blame the poor for their own plight. Why don't they

I see so many forum discussions where posters criticise the poor for their 'weak' decisions and effectively blame the poor for their own plight. Why don't they just work harder and earn the money to pay for their healthcare and education? they say. It is easy to withhold funding from deprived areas if you convince yourself that it is their own fault. These results should be on the front pages of newspapers and on TV (and Twitter: @POTUS I'm thinking of you!). The idea that children raised with few resources need help to plan for the long term seems to be rather lost on many politicians these days.

denzil_correa 8y ago
Yup - research seems to clearly indicate that financial stress has a significant effect on decision making. > Contrary to the refrain that bad decisions lead to poverty, data indicate that it is the cognitive toll of being poor that leads to bad decisions. And actually, decisions that may seem counterproductive could be entirely rational, even shrewd. ... > Even for people who are not in poverty, financial pressures can affect decision-making—and some companies are taking steps to address that. http://review.chicagobooth.edu/behavioral-science/2018/article/how-poverty-changes-your-mind-set http://review.chicagobooth.edu/behavioral-science/2018/artic...
TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
Scarcity is an outstanding book about this, and makes the point that severe constraints on anything - money, food, free time - can have psychologically damaging effects. In fact it’s extremely toxic - far more damaging than manynthings that have been banned now.
- fvdessen 8y ago
  Is poverty really linked to food scarcity in western countries anymore ? The statistics show that overall, the poor are fatter than the rich.
  - cimmanom 8y ago
    Because they have access to only poor quality foods. There may not be calorie scarcity but there is nutrition scarcity. And yes, for some there's also "food insecurity" which is not knowing where your next meal is coming from or having to choose between food and other necessities (shelter, warm winter clothing, medical care, transportation, etc.)
    - vinceguidry 8y ago
      This talks around food scarcity without actually being food scarcity. First, you have to show that poor quality foods actually reduce willpower and contribute to further poverty. People used to fight wars on poor diets. I'm sure there's lots of military planners in the world that would love it if they could feed their army the way America feeds its poor. Food insecurity isn't food scarcity either, it's just more income insecurity. The distinctions matter because the policy you craft to fix actual food scarcity is different and far easier than the policy you craft to address income insecurity. Edit: I'm going to go against my usual playbook and discuss my downvoters. You fix social problems with policy. Policy has to affect everyone. That's what makes it policy. If you tailor bad policy that doesn't work, because it doesn't address the root cause, then you've made the world worse and not better. Giving poor people cheap ubiquitous Whole Foods Markets isn't going to solve their problems.
    - mynameishere 8y ago
      This just isn't true. It's so obviously not true it's really very amazing that people repeat it. Go to a Dollar General in a poor area sometime. They have lots of potato chips and assorted crap. Yep. They also have canned beans, fruit, refrigerated sausage, cheese, chicken, etc. None of this is unaffordable. That's Dollar General. Most places have access to a Walmart which is as good nutritionally as any grocery store that ever existed. If people buy junk food it's because they enjoy it. Christ, even your typical gas station sells salad these days.
      - learc83 8y ago
        Cheap junk food is much more palatable than cheap healthy food. > Most places have access to a Walmart which is as good nutritionally as any grocery store that ever existed. Walmart tends to avoid the inner city. If you don't have a car there generally isn't one close enough to shop at more than once a week or so. Bringing home a week of groceries for a family on bus isn't a trivial task. It's much easier to pick up some cheap food from a convenience store. > Christ, even your typical gas station sells salad these days. If you compare the per calorie price of that salad to junk food, it's much more expensive.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  Scarcity is toxic in a context of opulence. If you live in a forest you end up hunting and organizing yourself. In a city you see everybody having it easy and you can't even rely on nature to allow your efforts to feed you. You can tame the stress of scarcity with a bit of meditation and experience.
golergka 8y ago
That's only relevant if you base your political opinions about this on some abstract "fairness" to the people involved.
ozim 8y ago
Help children as much as it is possible. There is no other way. You cannot help adults who made weak decisions they will continue making bad decisions. It is only children economic mobility that can help poor, if we enable children to have economic mobility we are winning. One child even in big family going right way can help a lot sisters, brothers, by setting example and providing further help.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Blackstone4 8y ago
I think that's why socialist countries seem to take the attitude that we, as politicians, know what's good for you and you don't. So we will regulate you and put in laws to protect you while restricting your choices and freedom. This may benefit the poor and irritate the rich.
- beer451 8y ago
  Unfortunately socialist countries being inevitably corrupt, the programs end up benefiting specific producers regardless of food quality.
  - Blackstone4 8y ago
    Stepping back, any country run by humans will inevitably be corrupt. So we are really talking about degrees of corruption. For context, I was referring to socialist countries under the European definition which is a mix of socialism and capitalism. This might include France, Denmark, Sweden etc. For us socialist != communist which is way further left. As with everything there is a spectrum. I feel like in the US in some circles... socialism == communism and socialist policies are demonized.... a result of the cold war echoing through history. There is little language to describe a left of center policies.
sheepmullet 8y ago
> The idea that children raised with few resources need help to plan for the long term seems to be rather lost on many politicians these days. The truth is unacceptable to our modern society. We still live in a harsh world where we have to sacrifice some people for the good of the community. Many critical traits like intelligence are largely inherited. Once we focus on the nurture side the three key influencers are growing up with a father in the home, living in a safe community, and having plenty of entry level jobs that build skills. Feminism has destroyed the first. Acceptance of gang violence and thug behavior has destroyed the second. Outsourcing and bringing in cheap migrant labor have destroyed the third. Until we fix these three key areas the divide between rich and poor will only grow.
- mijamo 8y ago
  This comment is a list of assertions without any base and ties netween each other. Why would we have to sacrifice anybody? How do you define intelligence and how is it biologically inherited? Why would those be the three influencers and not stuff like school, neighbours, family as a whole and public support? Why would feminism have killed fathers at home? Who said gangs are more accepted or that there is even more violence? Can you prove how immigration limits entry jobs? Last time I checked entry level jobs are actually missing candidates in many developped countries because the local youth doesn't take them (typically construction industry is under staffed in whole western europe and needs immigrants to work).
  - wavegeek 8y ago
    > How do you define intelligence and how is it biologically inherited? Any textbook on the topic will explain. This is not even controversial.
    - tchaffee 8y ago
      Yes it is. For sure some of it is inherited, but some is environment. The controversy is exactly how much of each. There are unexplained things like the Flynn effect that are probably environment.
chiefalchemist 8y ago
> "These results should be on the front pages of newspapers and on TV..." Agreed. But it's not. Instead we get Stormy Daniels, the royal wedding, etc. It's easy to point at DJT but he's merely a mirror. Like it or not, he represents the real America. The one that's been there all along. The one that's been glossed over by incompetent journalism and "news" organization. Note: I'm not saying all. Only that the segment of the population what's been hiding in plain sight is not longer being ignored.
acou_nPlusOne_t 8y ago
Well writting long posts about how people are to blame for theire own fates is the rich mens ritual cleansing of responsibilitys for his fellow human beeing. Behold the bathing parade below.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
alexandercrohde 8y ago
It's easy to blame "media" for that, but the media are market-driven in America. The fact that this isn't on good-morning America suggests those viewers don't care. It'd be nice if there was an easy answer, however wanting the media would force-feed intellectualism to people is wishful thinking.

denzil_correa 8y ago

Yup - research seems to clearly indicate that financial stress has a significant effect on decision making. > Contrary to the refrain that bad decisions lead to poverty, data indicate that it is the cognitive toll of being poor that leads to bad decisions. And actually, decisions that may seem counterproductive could be entirely rational, even shrewd. ... > Even for people who are not in poverty, financial pressures can affect decision-making—and some companies are taking steps to address that. http://review.chicagobooth.edu/behavioral-science/2018/article/how-poverty-changes-your-mind-set http://review.chicagobooth.edu/behavioral-science/2018/artic...

TheOtherHobbes 8y ago

Scarcity is an outstanding book about this, and makes the point that severe constraints on anything - money, food, free time - can have psychologically damaging effects. In fact it’s extremely toxic - far more damaging than manynthings that have been banned now.

fvdessen 8y ago
Is poverty really linked to food scarcity in western countries anymore ? The statistics show that overall, the poor are fatter than the rich.
- cimmanom 8y ago
  Because they have access to only poor quality foods. There may not be calorie scarcity but there is nutrition scarcity. And yes, for some there's also "food insecurity" which is not knowing where your next meal is coming from or having to choose between food and other necessities (shelter, warm winter clothing, medical care, transportation, etc.)
  - vinceguidry 8y ago
    This talks around food scarcity without actually being food scarcity. First, you have to show that poor quality foods actually reduce willpower and contribute to further poverty. People used to fight wars on poor diets. I'm sure there's lots of military planners in the world that would love it if they could feed their army the way America feeds its poor. Food insecurity isn't food scarcity either, it's just more income insecurity. The distinctions matter because the policy you craft to fix actual food scarcity is different and far easier than the policy you craft to address income insecurity. Edit: I'm going to go against my usual playbook and discuss my downvoters. You fix social problems with policy. Policy has to affect everyone. That's what makes it policy. If you tailor bad policy that doesn't work, because it doesn't address the root cause, then you've made the world worse and not better. Giving poor people cheap ubiquitous Whole Foods Markets isn't going to solve their problems.
  - mynameishere 8y ago
    This just isn't true. It's so obviously not true it's really very amazing that people repeat it. Go to a Dollar General in a poor area sometime. They have lots of potato chips and assorted crap. Yep. They also have canned beans, fruit, refrigerated sausage, cheese, chicken, etc. None of this is unaffordable. That's Dollar General. Most places have access to a Walmart which is as good nutritionally as any grocery store that ever existed. If people buy junk food it's because they enjoy it. Christ, even your typical gas station sells salad these days.
    - learc83 8y ago
      Cheap junk food is much more palatable than cheap healthy food. > Most places have access to a Walmart which is as good nutritionally as any grocery store that ever existed. Walmart tends to avoid the inner city. If you don't have a car there generally isn't one close enough to shop at more than once a week or so. Bringing home a week of groceries for a family on bus isn't a trivial task. It's much easier to pick up some cheap food from a convenience store. > Christ, even your typical gas station sells salad these days. If you compare the per calorie price of that salad to junk food, it's much more expensive.
agumonkey 8y ago
Scarcity is toxic in a context of opulence. If you live in a forest you end up hunting and organizing yourself. In a city you see everybody having it easy and you can't even rely on nature to allow your efforts to feed you. You can tame the stress of scarcity with a bit of meditation and experience.

golergka 8y ago

That's only relevant if you base your political opinions about this on some abstract "fairness" to the people involved.

ozim 8y ago

Help children as much as it is possible. There is no other way. You cannot help adults who made weak decisions they will continue making bad decisions. It is only children economic mobility that can help poor, if we enable children to have economic mobility we are winning. One child even in big family going right way can help a lot sisters, brothers, by setting example and providing further help.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Blackstone4 8y ago

I think that's why socialist countries seem to take the attitude that we, as politicians, know what's good for you and you don't. So we will regulate you and put in laws to protect you while restricting your choices and freedom. This may benefit the poor and irritate the rich.

beer451 8y ago
Unfortunately socialist countries being inevitably corrupt, the programs end up benefiting specific producers regardless of food quality.
- Blackstone4 8y ago
  Stepping back, any country run by humans will inevitably be corrupt. So we are really talking about degrees of corruption. For context, I was referring to socialist countries under the European definition which is a mix of socialism and capitalism. This might include France, Denmark, Sweden etc. For us socialist != communist which is way further left. As with everything there is a spectrum. I feel like in the US in some circles... socialism == communism and socialist policies are demonized.... a result of the cold war echoing through history. There is little language to describe a left of center policies.

sheepmullet 8y ago

> The idea that children raised with few resources need help to plan for the long term seems to be rather lost on many politicians these days. The truth is unacceptable to our modern society. We still live in a harsh world where we have to sacrifice some people for the good of the community. Many critical traits like intelligence are largely inherited. Once we focus on the nurture side the three key influencers are growing up with a father in the home, living in a safe community, and having plenty of entry level jobs that build skills. Feminism has destroyed the first. Acceptance of gang violence and thug behavior has destroyed the second. Outsourcing and bringing in cheap migrant labor have destroyed the third. Until we fix these three key areas the divide between rich and poor will only grow.

mijamo 8y ago
This comment is a list of assertions without any base and ties netween each other. Why would we have to sacrifice anybody? How do you define intelligence and how is it biologically inherited? Why would those be the three influencers and not stuff like school, neighbours, family as a whole and public support? Why would feminism have killed fathers at home? Who said gangs are more accepted or that there is even more violence? Can you prove how immigration limits entry jobs? Last time I checked entry level jobs are actually missing candidates in many developped countries because the local youth doesn't take them (typically construction industry is under staffed in whole western europe and needs immigrants to work).
- wavegeek 8y ago
  > How do you define intelligence and how is it biologically inherited? Any textbook on the topic will explain. This is not even controversial.
  - tchaffee 8y ago
    Yes it is. For sure some of it is inherited, but some is environment. The controversy is exactly how much of each. There are unexplained things like the Flynn effect that are probably environment.

chiefalchemist 8y ago

> "These results should be on the front pages of newspapers and on TV..." Agreed. But it's not. Instead we get Stormy Daniels, the royal wedding, etc. It's easy to point at DJT but he's merely a mirror. Like it or not, he represents the real America. The one that's been there all along. The one that's been glossed over by incompetent journalism and "news" organization. Note: I'm not saying all. Only that the segment of the population what's been hiding in plain sight is not longer being ignored.

acou_nPlusOne_t 8y ago

Well writting long posts about how people are to blame for theire own fates is the rich mens ritual cleansing of responsibilitys for his fellow human beeing. Behold the bathing parade below.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

alexandercrohde 8y ago

It's easy to blame "media" for that, but the media are market-driven in America. The fact that this isn't on good-morning America suggests those viewers don't care. It'd be nice if there was an easy answer, however wanting the media would force-feed intellectualism to people is wishful thinking.