4 ms·

> Why bother for the cost and enforcement? The cost is not a big deal. Spending 10's of thousands for a product earning millions is not a big deal. However e

by mchahn 8y ago

> Why bother for the cost and enforcement? The cost is not a big deal. Spending 10's of thousands for a product earning millions is not a big deal. However enforcement is ridiculous. One of my patents was for a very unique product idea that no other sane person would come up with. One of our distributors announced an exact copy product. We called in lawyers and they agreed we had an excellent case. At the end of the meeting they said they'd need a million dollar retainer. It wasn't worth it. We checked and couldn't get a better price. All in all the experience has spoiled me on the idea of ever patenting anything again.

paulie_a 8y ago
Exactly. honestly why even spend the ten grand if you can't reasonably enforce it. What's the point?
- _rpd 8y ago
  For smaller concerns, it is one of the few mechanisms that larger competitors actually respect. A small patent portfolio can form a basis for negotiations of all kinds that simply wouldn't take place otherwise.
  - mchahn 8y ago
    Yes, the first thing VCs ask is whether you have patents.
everybodyknows 8y ago
Do you mean damages could not possibly have been enough to pay back your legal fees -- or that up-front capital for enforcement, plus risk of delay were too great? If the latter, what about selling both patent and product tooling to someone with deep enough pockets to go after the infringer?
- mchahn 8y ago
  > Do you mean damages could not possibly have been enough to pay back your legal fees Unfortunately yes. The infringer was not big enough to be worth it. However, that meant the patent was then worthless. If you don't enforce a patent you lose it. Patents only seem to be worth it for large companies and trolls. P.S. I have always been fascinated by a contrary story. The guy that invented the intermittent window wiper got a patent and the car companies ignored him for a very long time. He sued over and over with no lawyers and eventually got a huge sum of money. Unfortunately he was quite old by then.
  - mcbits 8y ago
    > If you don't enforce a patent you lose it. Is this a European thing? I've heard of this for trademarks in the US, but never for patents.
    - tialaramex 8y ago
      Don't mistake superstitions for reality. Even lawyers are terrible for this. There is a general principle in law called estoppel, which means that if you tacitly allow something, you may not later be able to act as though you didn't. With patents that could mean that if you tell Big Yellow Widgets it's fine to make a thing that's clearly your patented Foozablip, but then after a year you say hey, Big Yellow, we just decided you owe us $50 per unit for the patent, estoppel might mean that's not OK. But it wouldn't mean Big Yellow can just keep making them without paying now you've decided on a fee, or that everybody else can join in too. Your patent still applies, it would just be unfair for it to override your previous OK and cost Big Yellow all that money.
      - mchahn 8y ago
        > Even lawyers are terrible for this. That would be surprising to me but I'm just quoting the lawyers. They might have just simplified it.
ggg9990 8y ago
You couldn’t get an IP ambulance chaser to do it on contingency?
mchahn 8y ago
Since there has been interest in my story I'll tell another part of it. When we first discovered the distributor was copying us we sent them a letter telling them we had a patent and to stop. It did no good. When we met with the lawyers they told us we made a big mistake. We were admitting we knew about the infringement. This sealed the issue of losing the patent. If we had acted ignorant we could have argued later we didn't know about it.
- everybodyknows 8y ago
  So, the strategy the lawyers imply is to secretly observe the infringer's sales volume, waiting until accrued damages exceed the 1 million litigation cost, but not so far as to exceed the infringer's liquidation value, then sue? And expect to forego triple damages, unless in discovery you can turn up an internal memo proving the infringement was knowing? My head begins to spin ...
starky 8y ago
For the most part the purpose of getting patents is to protect yourself from litigation from other companies. So when they try to sue you go back to them and say, "We might be infringing on this, but we believe you are infringing on our patents X, Y, and Z. How about we call it even and license the patents to each other?" The other benefit is that having a large patent portfolio shows that your company has value to potential buyers.

by mchahn 8y ago

paulie_a 8y ago

Exactly. honestly why even spend the ten grand if you can't reasonably enforce it. What's the point?

_rpd 8y ago
For smaller concerns, it is one of the few mechanisms that larger competitors actually respect. A small patent portfolio can form a basis for negotiations of all kinds that simply wouldn't take place otherwise.
- mchahn 8y ago
  Yes, the first thing VCs ask is whether you have patents.

everybodyknows 8y ago

Do you mean damages could not possibly have been enough to pay back your legal fees -- or that up-front capital for enforcement, plus risk of delay were too great? If the latter, what about selling both patent and product tooling to someone with deep enough pockets to go after the infringer?

mchahn 8y ago
> Do you mean damages could not possibly have been enough to pay back your legal fees Unfortunately yes. The infringer was not big enough to be worth it. However, that meant the patent was then worthless. If you don't enforce a patent you lose it. Patents only seem to be worth it for large companies and trolls. P.S. I have always been fascinated by a contrary story. The guy that invented the intermittent window wiper got a patent and the car companies ignored him for a very long time. He sued over and over with no lawyers and eventually got a huge sum of money. Unfortunately he was quite old by then.
- mcbits 8y ago
  > If you don't enforce a patent you lose it. Is this a European thing? I've heard of this for trademarks in the US, but never for patents.
  - tialaramex 8y ago
    Don't mistake superstitions for reality. Even lawyers are terrible for this. There is a general principle in law called estoppel, which means that if you tacitly allow something, you may not later be able to act as though you didn't. With patents that could mean that if you tell Big Yellow Widgets it's fine to make a thing that's clearly your patented Foozablip, but then after a year you say hey, Big Yellow, we just decided you owe us $50 per unit for the patent, estoppel might mean that's not OK. But it wouldn't mean Big Yellow can just keep making them without paying now you've decided on a fee, or that everybody else can join in too. Your patent still applies, it would just be unfair for it to override your previous OK and cost Big Yellow all that money.
    - mchahn 8y ago
      > Even lawyers are terrible for this. That would be surprising to me but I'm just quoting the lawyers. They might have just simplified it.

ggg9990 8y ago

You couldn’t get an IP ambulance chaser to do it on contingency?

mchahn 8y ago

Since there has been interest in my story I'll tell another part of it. When we first discovered the distributor was copying us we sent them a letter telling them we had a patent and to stop. It did no good. When we met with the lawyers they told us we made a big mistake. We were admitting we knew about the infringement. This sealed the issue of losing the patent. If we had acted ignorant we could have argued later we didn't know about it.

everybodyknows 8y ago
So, the strategy the lawyers imply is to secretly observe the infringer's sales volume, waiting until accrued damages exceed the 1 million litigation cost, but not so far as to exceed the infringer's liquidation value, then sue? And expect to forego triple damages, unless in discovery you can turn up an internal memo proving the infringement was knowing? My head begins to spin ...

starky 8y ago

For the most part the purpose of getting patents is to protect yourself from litigation from other companies. So when they try to sue you go back to them and say, "We might be infringing on this, but we believe you are infringing on our patents X, Y, and Z. How about we call it even and license the patents to each other?" The other benefit is that having a large patent portfolio shows that your company has value to potential buyers.