5 ms·

This doesn't just happen for low-wage jobs. I joined a dev team on March 8th. By March 21st, I learned that nobody has been paid in 2 months. Around that sam

This doesn't just happen for low-wage jobs. I joined a dev team on March 8th. By March 21st, I learned that nobody has been paid in 2 months. Around that same day, the CEO went to jail for writing bad checks. All other employees quit that same day. I stayed on after CEO got out-- hoping the client who has been supposed to pay would pay. I was also offered 20k raise + moved to President of Software Development. I was hoping I could temper the CEO's risk factors and keep the business going and maybe get a paycheck, and help get the people who quit paid as well for their previous work. I worked feverishly 100+hours per week to deliver updates... (keeping some of the IP on my own box --it only modified data, I'd run it locally then just export the data to mysql.) I've still not been paid, I've filed wage claims, and still nothing. I've since told the CEO and client, until I get paid nothing else happens. Has any other developer experienced anything like this? It's so frustrating especially since I'm about to be homeless as a result... I'm owed like nearly 20k in back pay.

fourneau 8y ago
I'm... curious. What motivated you to stay?
- gremlinsinc 8y ago
  I've been hovering in intermediate/mid-level jobs, around 60-70k/year, the chance at 90k + 10% of the company and to be a manager of other devs, was tempting to at least take a chance. -- Time's run out though. I've told my boss if I'm not paid this week, I'm going public and running sending his name/company name to the state attorney general (Utah), I'm contacting the FTC, as well as cc processor, and attorney general on behalf of the client as well (it's MLM so already somewhat shady in my book.). I used to do SEO before becoming a dev full-time in 2012, I can make it so no other developer ever works for this guy again. My hope while it'll feel good to get revenge, is that I truly save other devs from going through this...it's one of the most horrible things I've ever experienced professionally.
perhapsolt 8y ago
Yup stories like this get reported on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17202338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17202338
chiph 8y ago
Even if that client were to pay (and they're probably not inclined to send money to the firm), what's to say that the CEO won't keep it all as their own "back-pay"? I would contact an employment lawyer so that you'll get your 2+ months of pay, turn in all company materials and data, and leave on Monday morning.
tehwebguy 8y ago
WOW, what country?
dbg31415 8y ago
> This doesn't just happen for low-wage jobs. Yeah... little rant here... I recently got back from a year-long contract in Sydney. Australia is one of the most labor-friendly places on the planet. So if this sort of crap can happen there, it can happen anywhere. Recently settled and signed NDA... but I feel relatively anonymous on here. Anyway first... they made me an offer letter, and I resigned from the old job. About a week later -- they knew I had given notice at the old job -- they came back to me and said, "Yeah, we thought our budget was X, but now it's 80% X. Take it or leave it." I was annoyed, but I took it. Christmas came, they were giving out bonuses. Even though I was counted as a full-time employee, I didn't get a bonus like all the other non-immigrant workers. We found out that every Australian citizen or permanent resident got a bonus, but none of the Americans did. Shortly after complaining, HR sent a letter out to everyone saying that talking about pay or bonuses was a fireable offense. I stepped up to cover a few holidays, and worked over the Christmas break. But they had automatically taken 2 weeks off of my vacation pool... it took about 4 months to get it sorted, I eventually did get the time back -- but only after I pulled time sheet records (something most employees couldn't do) to show I was working. My final expense report never got paid. They had my start date off by about a week. They had my end date off by 3 days. Long story short, I ended up taking them to the Fair Work Commission (sort of like Small Claims Court). It was not an easy decision to do this. My network in Australia isn't huge, and I can't control the story they will tell inside the company, or to future employers who want to call and verify work / references. Clearly I can control who I list as references, but... far too much damage can be done when someone looks up connections on LinkedIn, and asks one of the shady folks, "Hey, what did you think of him?" I won’t get a chance to tell my side of it, I just don’t get the job. So I won my claim (or at least got them to make me an offer that I settled for -- about 50% of what I was actually due), and helped a handful of other people win their claims... but I'm quite certain I alienated my manager and MD and everyone on the HR team in the process. It's expensive to stand up for yourself. Time to fight it, cost of a lawyer, and cost to the network... not hard to see why so many people don't fight it. A few grand... meh, I probably would have written it off if they paid any portion time, expense reports, or bonuses that they should have paid me. Mind you this wasn't some Podunk 10-person agency... it was an agency with over 2,000 global employees. And I wasn't some day-rate worker, I was director-level and they tasked me with running some of their biggest projects for some of their highest profile clients.
twblalock 8y ago
I have heard several stories like yours, and none of them ended well. It has not happened to me, because I would have quit after even a single missing paycheck -- the job market for software developers is just too good for anyone to be willing to put up with this kind of abuse. I really hope you are looking for another job rather than staying where you are and hoping to get a paycheck. And I also really hope you are talking to a qualified lawyer about this.
- gremlinsinc 8y ago
  Trying to find some freelance gigs for now (Laravel + Vue is my stack if you know anyone looking), really need to pay the bills, I'm open to full-time, but I'd really prefer something remote as I love working from home/remotely. i'm also not wanting to relocate (I'm in Utah).
gwbas1c 8y ago
Just. Walk. Away. Someone that doesn't pay you doesn't deserve professional respect or ultimatums. Don't steal IP, or help keep lights on. Just. Walk. Away.
- ddingus 8y ago
  Agreed. And I've done that in my distant pass too. Was good advice. However, many victims are trapped, and that raises the bar considerably.
dboreham 8y ago
Three words. Spoken by Mr. Jerry MaGuire.
- headsoup 8y ago
  "Show me the"?
shams93 8y ago
That's still under the limit for small claims so you could file in court for yourself without needing a lawyer to a make a claim on those wages.
- gremlinsinc 8y ago
  I'm waiting on 2nd wage claim, to file another for the following month.. once I get both claims approved, I'll file a small claims for each one...so I can make sure to get all I'm owed. I figure each wage claim is a separate case in and of itself. (IANAL though).
sotojuan 8y ago
I really can't understand why you didn't quit as soon as you found out the lack of pay or as soon as you realized your first paycheck was late. In fact, it seems you worked even harder, so I guess the CEO and client got what they wanted?
- gremlinsinc 8y ago
  I haven't delivered code -- only data so far, except for a tiny little fix on a page. I had to run some major data processing changing a broken hierarchy chart thousands of levels deep and following certain rules, using mysql 5.7 (no CTEs).
dvtv75 8y ago
One important thing I've learned is that you can't change a bad business. It doesn't matter how hard you try, or what you do, they will remain the same.
- gremlinsinc 8y ago
  No, but I do plan on writing an extensive medium article about the company, the ceo, the client's company, their CEO, as well as all dirt I can dig up on them (I already have screenshots from past convictions of the CEO of my company). I may not be able to change their business practices, but I can make it so they lose more money than they owe me through lost business deals with other people. I can also make it much harder for them to hire developers in the future.
  - twblalock 8y ago
    Be very careful about attempts to take revenge. Telling the relevant state authorities that the company broke the law is fine. Getting a lawyer and suing the company for your lost wages is fine. But shaming the company or the CEO publicly could land you in a world of legal trouble. On top of that, publicly shaming your previous employer could make you less attractive as a job candidate. A lot of companies would not want to hire somebody who does that, because they think that person might do it to them -- and they might think that way even if they believe you are telling the truth and they have no plans to screw you over.

fourneau 8y ago

I'm... curious. What motivated you to stay?

gremlinsinc 8y ago
I've been hovering in intermediate/mid-level jobs, around 60-70k/year, the chance at 90k + 10% of the company and to be a manager of other devs, was tempting to at least take a chance. -- Time's run out though. I've told my boss if I'm not paid this week, I'm going public and running sending his name/company name to the state attorney general (Utah), I'm contacting the FTC, as well as cc processor, and attorney general on behalf of the client as well (it's MLM so already somewhat shady in my book.). I used to do SEO before becoming a dev full-time in 2012, I can make it so no other developer ever works for this guy again. My hope while it'll feel good to get revenge, is that I truly save other devs from going through this...it's one of the most horrible things I've ever experienced professionally.

perhapsolt 8y ago

Yup stories like this get reported on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17202338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17202338

chiph 8y ago

Even if that client were to pay (and they're probably not inclined to send money to the firm), what's to say that the CEO won't keep it all as their own "back-pay"? I would contact an employment lawyer so that you'll get your 2+ months of pay, turn in all company materials and data, and leave on Monday morning.

tehwebguy 8y ago

WOW, what country?

dbg31415 8y ago

> This doesn't just happen for low-wage jobs. Yeah... little rant here... I recently got back from a year-long contract in Sydney. Australia is one of the most labor-friendly places on the planet. So if this sort of crap can happen there, it can happen anywhere. Recently settled and signed NDA... but I feel relatively anonymous on here. Anyway first... they made me an offer letter, and I resigned from the old job. About a week later -- they knew I had given notice at the old job -- they came back to me and said, "Yeah, we thought our budget was X, but now it's 80% X. Take it or leave it." I was annoyed, but I took it. Christmas came, they were giving out bonuses. Even though I was counted as a full-time employee, I didn't get a bonus like all the other non-immigrant workers. We found out that every Australian citizen or permanent resident got a bonus, but none of the Americans did. Shortly after complaining, HR sent a letter out to everyone saying that talking about pay or bonuses was a fireable offense. I stepped up to cover a few holidays, and worked over the Christmas break. But they had automatically taken 2 weeks off of my vacation pool... it took about 4 months to get it sorted, I eventually did get the time back -- but only after I pulled time sheet records (something most employees couldn't do) to show I was working. My final expense report never got paid. They had my start date off by about a week. They had my end date off by 3 days. Long story short, I ended up taking them to the Fair Work Commission (sort of like Small Claims Court). It was not an easy decision to do this. My network in Australia isn't huge, and I can't control the story they will tell inside the company, or to future employers who want to call and verify work / references. Clearly I can control who I list as references, but... far too much damage can be done when someone looks up connections on LinkedIn, and asks one of the shady folks, "Hey, what did you think of him?" I won’t get a chance to tell my side of it, I just don’t get the job. So I won my claim (or at least got them to make me an offer that I settled for -- about 50% of what I was actually due), and helped a handful of other people win their claims... but I'm quite certain I alienated my manager and MD and everyone on the HR team in the process. It's expensive to stand up for yourself. Time to fight it, cost of a lawyer, and cost to the network... not hard to see why so many people don't fight it. A few grand... meh, I probably would have written it off if they paid any portion time, expense reports, or bonuses that they should have paid me. Mind you this wasn't some Podunk 10-person agency... it was an agency with over 2,000 global employees. And I wasn't some day-rate worker, I was director-level and they tasked me with running some of their biggest projects for some of their highest profile clients.

twblalock 8y ago

I have heard several stories like yours, and none of them ended well. It has not happened to me, because I would have quit after even a single missing paycheck -- the job market for software developers is just too good for anyone to be willing to put up with this kind of abuse. I really hope you are looking for another job rather than staying where you are and hoping to get a paycheck. And I also really hope you are talking to a qualified lawyer about this.

gremlinsinc 8y ago
Trying to find some freelance gigs for now (Laravel + Vue is my stack if you know anyone looking), really need to pay the bills, I'm open to full-time, but I'd really prefer something remote as I love working from home/remotely. i'm also not wanting to relocate (I'm in Utah).

gwbas1c 8y ago

Just. Walk. Away. Someone that doesn't pay you doesn't deserve professional respect or ultimatums. Don't steal IP, or help keep lights on. Just. Walk. Away.

ddingus 8y ago
Agreed. And I've done that in my distant pass too. Was good advice. However, many victims are trapped, and that raises the bar considerably.

dboreham 8y ago

Three words. Spoken by Mr. Jerry MaGuire.

headsoup 8y ago
"Show me the"?

shams93 8y ago

That's still under the limit for small claims so you could file in court for yourself without needing a lawyer to a make a claim on those wages.

gremlinsinc 8y ago
I'm waiting on 2nd wage claim, to file another for the following month.. once I get both claims approved, I'll file a small claims for each one...so I can make sure to get all I'm owed. I figure each wage claim is a separate case in and of itself. (IANAL though).

sotojuan 8y ago

I really can't understand why you didn't quit as soon as you found out the lack of pay or as soon as you realized your first paycheck was late. In fact, it seems you worked even harder, so I guess the CEO and client got what they wanted?

gremlinsinc 8y ago
I haven't delivered code -- only data so far, except for a tiny little fix on a page. I had to run some major data processing changing a broken hierarchy chart thousands of levels deep and following certain rules, using mysql 5.7 (no CTEs).

dvtv75 8y ago

One important thing I've learned is that you can't change a bad business. It doesn't matter how hard you try, or what you do, they will remain the same.

gremlinsinc 8y ago
No, but I do plan on writing an extensive medium article about the company, the ceo, the client's company, their CEO, as well as all dirt I can dig up on them (I already have screenshots from past convictions of the CEO of my company). I may not be able to change their business practices, but I can make it so they lose more money than they owe me through lost business deals with other people. I can also make it much harder for them to hire developers in the future.
- twblalock 8y ago
  Be very careful about attempts to take revenge. Telling the relevant state authorities that the company broke the law is fine. Getting a lawyer and suing the company for your lost wages is fine. But shaming the company or the CEO publicly could land you in a world of legal trouble. On top of that, publicly shaming your previous employer could make you less attractive as a job candidate. A lot of companies would not want to hire somebody who does that, because they think that person might do it to them -- and they might think that way even if they believe you are telling the truth and they have no plans to screw you over.