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> In other news, the US, NATO and friends in this century alone destroyed Iraq, Libya, almost destroyed Syria and Yemen and did a few other nasty things that re

> In other news, the US, NATO and friends in this century alone destroyed Iraq, Libya, almost destroyed Syria and Yemen and did a few other nasty things that resulted in at least a million dead. Do you have a big enough item 5 for that? Destroyed? You'll need to provide some pretty strong proof to convince me those countries aren't there anymore. Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends" (that is, unless you want to do something silly like trace things too far back to look for butterflies, ignore a lot of recent history, and remove all agency from the locals).

boomboomsubban 8y ago
Proof? Libya has currently been broken into four or more warring states, each controlling some part of Libya. >Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends". By providing the various sides with arms and support. Though I think you can put much of the blame of the civil wars staring on the US, even if you disagree the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support.
- kinsomo 8y ago
  >> Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends". > Though I think you can put much of the blame of the civil wars staring on the US, even if you disagree the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support. I think that's profoundly ignorant and belies lazy thinking, especially in relation to Syria. The precise cause of the civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime [1] [2] [3] [4]. As for "providing the various sides with arms and support," I would be gobsmacked if you could show the US provided arms to Assad, especially in significant numbers. I recall significant dithering by the Obama administration over the level of support to give the rebels, and the fact that the US withheld arms to the rebels (over fears of inadvertently supporting Islamic extremists) is what allowed ISIS to grow so strong and eclipse the more liberal rebel groups. > the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support. If only because the support of other nations would have had a relatively greater effect [5]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_of_events_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_of_events_of_the_Syrian... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War_(January%E2%80%93April_2011) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_W... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/world/middleeast/26syria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/world/middleeast/26syria.... [4] https://carnegieendowment.org/2016/11/22/syria-s-path-from-civic-uprising-to-civil-war-pub-66171 https://carnegieendowment.org/2016/11/22/syria-s-path-from-c... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syr...
  - igivanov 8y ago
    >The precise cause of the civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime https://www.sott.net/article/377588-Syrian-War-for-Dummies-Three-Versions https://www.sott.net/article/377588-Syrian-War-for-Dummies-T... I think your version is ~ between Disney and high school. read your [5] carefully again (I am sure you haven't), and note the nice sidebar on the right "Covert United States involvement in regime change", it's not there by accident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore
    - kinsomo 8y ago
      >> The precise cause of the civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime > https://www.sott.net/article/377588-Syrian-War-for-Dummies-T.. https://www.sott.net/article/377588-Syrian-War-for-Dummies-T.... Sott.net doesn't seem like a very reliable source. This appears to be a friendly description of it in a related wiki (https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Signs_of_the_Times https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Signs_of_the_Times): > SOTT is a research project of the non-profit Quantum Future Group (QFG) and is run by volunteers. The project includes collecting, arranging, and analyzing news items that seem to best reflect the movement of macrocosmic quantum energies on the planet. This research further includes noting whether or not human beings, individually and/or collectively, can actually remember from one day to the next the state of the planet, and whether they are able to accurately read that information and make intelligent decisions about their future based on that knowledge. In short, SOTT is an experiment. > While the site began as a one-woman operation, this work quickly attracted some truly fine, open minds – people interested in truth, many of whom are scientific professionals and whose work on SOTT is anonymous for their own protection. SOTT and QFG has been attacked, suppressed, and marginalized by the Powers That Be in ways that no other work has been, leaving editors and researchers with the distinct impression that they must be on the right track. "the Powers That Be" links a page about the "Matrix Control System." This is a much less friendly description of the person who founded sott.net: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Laura_Knight_Jadczyk https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Laura_Knight_Jadczyk. > and note the nice sidebar on the right "Covert United States involvement in regime change", it's not there by accident. 1) That lists the Syrian civil war. 2) It doesn't contradict anything that I said. The precise cause of the present Syrian civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime. No one pretends that the US was friendly or neutral towards that regime prior to the war. I would not surprise me if the US took some action against it prior to that, but those actions were unsuccessful and not causally linked to the civil war (beyond butterfly-effect level stuff). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore: > "Launched in 2012 or 2013" That post-dates the beginning of the Syrian civil war.
ihsw2 8y ago
Civil war implies it was a local phenomenon -- it was not. Foreign invaders occupied territory which has thankfully been restored to the democratically elected government.

boomboomsubban 8y ago

Proof? Libya has currently been broken into four or more warring states, each controlling some part of Libya. >Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends". By providing the various sides with arms and support. Though I think you can put much of the blame of the civil wars staring on the US, even if you disagree the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support.

kinsomo 8y ago
>> Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends". > Though I think you can put much of the blame of the civil wars staring on the US, even if you disagree the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support. I think that's profoundly ignorant and belies lazy thinking, especially in relation to Syria. The precise cause of the civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime [1] [2] [3] [4]. As for "providing the various sides with arms and support," I would be gobsmacked if you could show the US provided arms to Assad, especially in significant numbers. I recall significant dithering by the Obama administration over the level of support to give the rebels, and the fact that the US withheld arms to the rebels (over fears of inadvertently supporting Islamic extremists) is what allowed ISIS to grow so strong and eclipse the more liberal rebel groups. > the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support. If only because the support of other nations would have had a relatively greater effect [5]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_of_events_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_of_events_of_the_Syrian... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War_(January%E2%80%93April_2011) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_W... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/world/middleeast/26syria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/world/middleeast/26syria.... [4] https://carnegieendowment.org/2016/11/22/syria-s-path-from-civic-uprising-to-civil-war-pub-66171 https://carnegieendowment.org/2016/11/22/syria-s-path-from-c... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syr...
- igivanov 8y ago
  >The precise cause of the civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime https://www.sott.net/article/377588-Syrian-War-for-Dummies-Three-Versions https://www.sott.net/article/377588-Syrian-War-for-Dummies-T... I think your version is ~ between Disney and high school. read your [5] carefully again (I am sure you haven't), and note the nice sidebar on the right "Covert United States involvement in regime change", it's not there by accident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore
  - kinsomo 8y ago
    >> The precise cause of the civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime > https://www.sott.net/article/377588-Syrian-War-for-Dummies-T.. https://www.sott.net/article/377588-Syrian-War-for-Dummies-T.... Sott.net doesn't seem like a very reliable source. This appears to be a friendly description of it in a related wiki (https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Signs_of_the_Times https://thecasswiki.net/index.php?title=Signs_of_the_Times): > SOTT is a research project of the non-profit Quantum Future Group (QFG) and is run by volunteers. The project includes collecting, arranging, and analyzing news items that seem to best reflect the movement of macrocosmic quantum energies on the planet. This research further includes noting whether or not human beings, individually and/or collectively, can actually remember from one day to the next the state of the planet, and whether they are able to accurately read that information and make intelligent decisions about their future based on that knowledge. In short, SOTT is an experiment. > While the site began as a one-woman operation, this work quickly attracted some truly fine, open minds – people interested in truth, many of whom are scientific professionals and whose work on SOTT is anonymous for their own protection. SOTT and QFG has been attacked, suppressed, and marginalized by the Powers That Be in ways that no other work has been, leaving editors and researchers with the distinct impression that they must be on the right track. "the Powers That Be" links a page about the "Matrix Control System." This is a much less friendly description of the person who founded sott.net: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Laura_Knight_Jadczyk https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Laura_Knight_Jadczyk. > and note the nice sidebar on the right "Covert United States involvement in regime change", it's not there by accident. 1) That lists the Syrian civil war. 2) It doesn't contradict anything that I said. The precise cause of the present Syrian civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime. No one pretends that the US was friendly or neutral towards that regime prior to the war. I would not surprise me if the US took some action against it prior to that, but those actions were unsuccessful and not causally linked to the civil war (beyond butterfly-effect level stuff). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore: > "Launched in 2012 or 2013" That post-dates the beginning of the Syrian civil war.

ihsw2 8y ago

Civil war implies it was a local phenomenon -- it was not. Foreign invaders occupied territory which has thankfully been restored to the democratically elected government.