4 ms·

More regulation around wage theft & mandatory overtime or limits on hours worked could really benefit tech workers as well. I for one would really like overtime

by jrs95 8y ago

More regulation around wage theft & mandatory overtime or limits on hours worked could really benefit tech workers as well. I for one would really like overtime over 50 hours to be mandatory, at the very least. It's just not sustainable or healthy to be working 60+ hour weeks and not taking any vacation because that would result in critical work not being done quickly enough for management to be satisfied. Clearly, what I'm describing is a pretty shitty job as far as tech goes, but I have a feeling I am far from alone in being in this situation.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
Run for office, and failing that, get involved with your representatives and vote for those that support strengthening labor’s position.
- 49531 8y ago
  There are ways to strengthen labor outside of running of office. If you work in a corporation you can begin to organize your co workers. If you can't do that, you can get involved with local organizations and help others organize their workplaces. It takes a lot of effort to organize and there's a lot of room for volunteers.
49531 8y ago
Honestly over 40 hours should be OT. I feel like a lot of tech workers feel like they have cush jobs which will become less liberal if they start drawing lines in the sand. Our labor is early in its commodification though. As we become less unique we will be easier to exploit. Organizing now isn't a bad idea.
- namibj 8y ago
  In Germany, there is criminal liability if your subordinates (if you are making their schedules, or would be the one to tell them to go home) work over an average of 8h/workday (only those in the contract count, if none specified, courts said to assume 5 work days), or a top of 10h/shift. Except for a very few select industries, you also need at least iirc 11h off between two shifts, but there are some ways/loopholes around this one. Any overage over the 8h average has to be evened out within usually 3 months, unless something else is in the contract (and as with German law, if the contract is evil, i.e. "sittenwiedrig", it, or at least the relevant portions, is/are void). This does mean that you might not get another job if you speak up, as always, but it does mean that if you are willing to change industries, your superior faces criminal charges. Combined with the neglegible risk of not being able to feed your family, due to the vast social support net, you are actually able to stand by your principles, if you do care.
  - jotm 8y ago
    What if the employee actually asks/wants to work overtime?
    - the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
      Is this an actual issue?
      - throwaway37585 8y ago
        What do you mean?
      - jotm 8y ago
        Well, in the UK there's a waiver you can sign that lets you work more than 48 hours a week. It's more beneficial to the employer imo, but people who want a lot of overtime can actually get it. I just wonder if it's stricter in Germany - i.e. you can work 40hrs/week and that's absolutely it.
        namibj 8y ago
        It'r rather strict. The 10h/day limit can only really be breached if there is something on fire (well, a network counts too), which has a great immediate risk to the company, or if human life is acutely at risk.
        froh 8y ago
        According to the law the week is Monday through Saturday, 6*8=48... We often tend to forget that we fought hard for the five day week. So while it's common for qualified jobs to have a 40h/WK contract, high workload opens the door to extend the week to 6 days, "Saturday work". Again for qualified jobs you better compensate your people well for that... For the floating average of 8h per day the rules then reference your usual regular work week. So if you are on a 5 day contract (like most people these days), that's where the 40h week comes from. For those amongst us who regularly do 6 days, 48h is perfectly legal in Germany. And temporarily those numbers go up to 50/60h weeks. The floating mean has to go down to 40/48 though. Iirc within a 6 month period, which is not law but usual (court) reading of the law.
- walterbell 8y ago
  Take a look at California's history of overtime laws for tech writers vs. software developers, http://andreas.com/faq-overtime/ http://andreas.com/faq-overtime/ > April 2000, overtime pay was enacted for all who work in California. A new law (AB60, Assembly Bill 60) established the 40-hour week and mandated overtime pay for work over 40 hours. In reaction, the NACCB (the recruiter association) made a number of legislative manuvers to eliminate overtime pay ... the original law gave everyone overtime pay. The recruiters wanted a new law to exempt Silicon Valley so that computer workers got no overtime pay. We tech writers wanted overtime, so the recruiter’s law couldn’t affect the tech writers. So we added our clause to their law: our exemption from recruiter’s exemption ... Engineers have always refused to organize or even to be aware of their interests: they think recruiters are their friends. One engineer said to me: “Engineers think they’re so smart that no one could do such a thing to them. Wow. They got really screwed.” The law is an annual loss of as much as $50-75,000 dollars per each engineer. Yep, it’s legal. The recuiters wrote a law to take away their money. ... If you’re an engineer, or you make over $41/hr, and you’re not covered by the NWU clause, the recruiters are stripping away your overtime pay. Separately, a modern example of collective bargaining, timed for next week’s WWDC, https://www.wired.com/story/apple-app-developers-union/amp https://www.wired.com/story/apple-app-developers-union/amp > a group identifying themselves as The Developers Union wrote that "it's been difficult for developers to earn a living by writing software" built on Apple's existing values. The group then asked Apple to allow free trials for apps, which would give customers "the chance to experience our work for themselves, before they have to commit to making a purchase." The grassroots effort is being lead by Jake Schumacher, the director of App: The Human Story; software developer Roger Ogden and product designer Loren Morris, who both worked for a timesheet app that was acquired last year; and Brent Simmons...
rb808 8y ago
> I have a feeling I am far from alone in being in this situation. You should talk to your boss about this. Seriously its time to move to a new job or you teach your boss get used to "not being satisfied".
- techsin101 8y ago
  I can't reply to original post, so here goes.. I was reading your post at, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16995260 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16995260 you said that some of the problems you face are ... - Doorman accepts dozens of package deliveries each day which get sent email ... What is the problem here? that doorman has to write apartment numbers? sorry just little lost. - I have to approve lots of expenses not knowing costs don't you over time start to get an idea how much repairs cost? - Contractors are unreliable Don't contractors have yelp reviews?
matheusmoreira 8y ago
> It's just not sustainable or healthy to be working 60+ hour weeks and not taking any vacation This seems to be a huge problem in many fields. I know it's a problem in medicine, and regulation of work hours doesn't appear to be particularly effective. This 2006 article compares the workload of medical students (who are paying to work in order to learn and gain experience) before and one year after work hours regulation: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/203251 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/203251 > Working shifts greater than 30 consecutive hours was reported by 67.4% (95% CI, 64.8%-70.0%) > Averaged over 4 weeks, 43.0% (95% CI, 40.3%-45.7%) reported working more than 80 hours weekly > 43.7% (95% CI, 41.0%-46.5%) reported not having 1 day in 7 off work duties > 29.0% (95% CI, 28.7%-29.7%) of reported work weeks were more than 80 hours per week > 12.1% (95% CI, 11.8%-12.6%) were 90 or more hours per week > 3.9% (95% CI, 3.7%-4.2%) were 100 or more hours per week > reported mean work duration decreased 5.8% from 70.7 (95% CI, 70.5-70.9) hours to 66.6 (95% CI, 66.3-66.9) hours per week (P<.001) > reported mean sleep duration increased 6.1% (22 minutes) from 5.91 (95% CI, 5.88-5.94) hours to 6.27 (95% CI, 6.23-6.31) hours per night (P<.001) > reported mean sleep during extended shifts decreased 4.5%, from 2.69 (95% CI, 2.66-2.73) hours to 2.57 (95% CI, 2.52-2.62) hours (P<.001) This directly contradicts official data published by the accreditation council, which claimed compliance rates were much higher. Apparently, people lie about the hours they worked because they don't want their programs to be shut down: > residency programs and residents themselves face a direct conflict of interest in acknowledging violations to the ACGME > because the identities of those reporting violations have not been adequately protected in the past > Because disclosure of violations to the ACGME could lead to loss of program accreditation, disclosure could threaten residents' own careers Similar conflicts of interest seem to arise in pretty much every field. Speaking up about violations or taking companies to court appears to harm employees in the long term. The problem is probably much larger than what we're seeing.

by jrs95 8y ago

toomuchtodo 8y ago

Run for office, and failing that, get involved with your representatives and vote for those that support strengthening labor’s position.

49531 8y ago
There are ways to strengthen labor outside of running of office. If you work in a corporation you can begin to organize your co workers. If you can't do that, you can get involved with local organizations and help others organize their workplaces. It takes a lot of effort to organize and there's a lot of room for volunteers.

49531 8y ago

Honestly over 40 hours should be OT. I feel like a lot of tech workers feel like they have cush jobs which will become less liberal if they start drawing lines in the sand. Our labor is early in its commodification though. As we become less unique we will be easier to exploit. Organizing now isn't a bad idea.

namibj 8y ago
In Germany, there is criminal liability if your subordinates (if you are making their schedules, or would be the one to tell them to go home) work over an average of 8h/workday (only those in the contract count, if none specified, courts said to assume 5 work days), or a top of 10h/shift. Except for a very few select industries, you also need at least iirc 11h off between two shifts, but there are some ways/loopholes around this one. Any overage over the 8h average has to be evened out within usually 3 months, unless something else is in the contract (and as with German law, if the contract is evil, i.e. "sittenwiedrig", it, or at least the relevant portions, is/are void). This does mean that you might not get another job if you speak up, as always, but it does mean that if you are willing to change industries, your superior faces criminal charges. Combined with the neglegible risk of not being able to feed your family, due to the vast social support net, you are actually able to stand by your principles, if you do care.
- jotm 8y ago
  What if the employee actually asks/wants to work overtime?
  - the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
    Is this an actual issue?
    - throwaway37585 8y ago
      What do you mean?
    - jotm 8y ago
      Well, in the UK there's a waiver you can sign that lets you work more than 48 hours a week. It's more beneficial to the employer imo, but people who want a lot of overtime can actually get it. I just wonder if it's stricter in Germany - i.e. you can work 40hrs/week and that's absolutely it.
      - namibj 8y ago
        It'r rather strict. The 10h/day limit can only really be breached if there is something on fire (well, a network counts too), which has a great immediate risk to the company, or if human life is acutely at risk.
      - froh 8y ago
        According to the law the week is Monday through Saturday, 6*8=48... We often tend to forget that we fought hard for the five day week. So while it's common for qualified jobs to have a 40h/WK contract, high workload opens the door to extend the week to 6 days, "Saturday work". Again for qualified jobs you better compensate your people well for that... For the floating average of 8h per day the rules then reference your usual regular work week. So if you are on a 5 day contract (like most people these days), that's where the 40h week comes from. For those amongst us who regularly do 6 days, 48h is perfectly legal in Germany. And temporarily those numbers go up to 50/60h weeks. The floating mean has to go down to 40/48 though. Iirc within a 6 month period, which is not law but usual (court) reading of the law.
walterbell 8y ago
Take a look at California's history of overtime laws for tech writers vs. software developers, http://andreas.com/faq-overtime/ http://andreas.com/faq-overtime/ > April 2000, overtime pay was enacted for all who work in California. A new law (AB60, Assembly Bill 60) established the 40-hour week and mandated overtime pay for work over 40 hours. In reaction, the NACCB (the recruiter association) made a number of legislative manuvers to eliminate overtime pay ... the original law gave everyone overtime pay. The recruiters wanted a new law to exempt Silicon Valley so that computer workers got no overtime pay. We tech writers wanted overtime, so the recruiter’s law couldn’t affect the tech writers. So we added our clause to their law: our exemption from recruiter’s exemption ... Engineers have always refused to organize or even to be aware of their interests: they think recruiters are their friends. One engineer said to me: “Engineers think they’re so smart that no one could do such a thing to them. Wow. They got really screwed.” The law is an annual loss of as much as $50-75,000 dollars per each engineer. Yep, it’s legal. The recuiters wrote a law to take away their money. ... If you’re an engineer, or you make over $41/hr, and you’re not covered by the NWU clause, the recruiters are stripping away your overtime pay. Separately, a modern example of collective bargaining, timed for next week’s WWDC, https://www.wired.com/story/apple-app-developers-union/amp https://www.wired.com/story/apple-app-developers-union/amp > a group identifying themselves as The Developers Union wrote that "it's been difficult for developers to earn a living by writing software" built on Apple's existing values. The group then asked Apple to allow free trials for apps, which would give customers "the chance to experience our work for themselves, before they have to commit to making a purchase." The grassroots effort is being lead by Jake Schumacher, the director of App: The Human Story; software developer Roger Ogden and product designer Loren Morris, who both worked for a timesheet app that was acquired last year; and Brent Simmons...

rb808 8y ago

> I have a feeling I am far from alone in being in this situation. You should talk to your boss about this. Seriously its time to move to a new job or you teach your boss get used to "not being satisfied".

techsin101 8y ago
I can't reply to original post, so here goes.. I was reading your post at, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16995260 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16995260 you said that some of the problems you face are ... - Doorman accepts dozens of package deliveries each day which get sent email ... What is the problem here? that doorman has to write apartment numbers? sorry just little lost. - I have to approve lots of expenses not knowing costs don't you over time start to get an idea how much repairs cost? - Contractors are unreliable Don't contractors have yelp reviews?

matheusmoreira 8y ago

> It's just not sustainable or healthy to be working 60+ hour weeks and not taking any vacation This seems to be a huge problem in many fields. I know it's a problem in medicine, and regulation of work hours doesn't appear to be particularly effective. This 2006 article compares the workload of medical students (who are paying to work in order to learn and gain experience) before and one year after work hours regulation: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/203251 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/203251 > Working shifts greater than 30 consecutive hours was reported by 67.4% (95% CI, 64.8%-70.0%) > Averaged over 4 weeks, 43.0% (95% CI, 40.3%-45.7%) reported working more than 80 hours weekly > 43.7% (95% CI, 41.0%-46.5%) reported not having 1 day in 7 off work duties > 29.0% (95% CI, 28.7%-29.7%) of reported work weeks were more than 80 hours per week > 12.1% (95% CI, 11.8%-12.6%) were 90 or more hours per week > 3.9% (95% CI, 3.7%-4.2%) were 100 or more hours per week > reported mean work duration decreased 5.8% from 70.7 (95% CI, 70.5-70.9) hours to 66.6 (95% CI, 66.3-66.9) hours per week (P<.001) > reported mean sleep duration increased 6.1% (22 minutes) from 5.91 (95% CI, 5.88-5.94) hours to 6.27 (95% CI, 6.23-6.31) hours per night (P<.001) > reported mean sleep during extended shifts decreased 4.5%, from 2.69 (95% CI, 2.66-2.73) hours to 2.57 (95% CI, 2.52-2.62) hours (P<.001) This directly contradicts official data published by the accreditation council, which claimed compliance rates were much higher. Apparently, people lie about the hours they worked because they don't want their programs to be shut down: > residency programs and residents themselves face a direct conflict of interest in acknowledging violations to the ACGME > because the identities of those reporting violations have not been adequately protected in the past > Because disclosure of violations to the ACGME could lead to loss of program accreditation, disclosure could threaten residents' own careers Similar conflicts of interest seem to arise in pretty much every field. Speaking up about violations or taking companies to court appears to harm employees in the long term. The problem is probably much larger than what we're seeing.