4 ms·

In other news, the US, NATO and friends in this century alone destroyed Iraq, Libya, almost destroyed Syria and Yemen and did a few other nasty things that resu

In other news, the US, NATO and friends in this century alone destroyed Iraq, Libya, almost destroyed Syria and Yemen and did a few other nasty things that resulted in at least a million dead. Do you have a big enough item 5 for that?

em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- whatsstolat 8y ago
  Parent makes a point though. Should we boycott everything?
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  Doesn't make his point any less valid in this PARTICULAR context. I mean, where are we going to move the factories if the prerequisite is "No brutal use of deadly force against Muslims" ?
  - em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
    Was he making a relevant point besides that the West/US has done bad things too?
    - bilbo0s 8y ago
      I guess I inferred that he was pointing out the futility of looking for a place to move factories that is untarnished in this regard. If that was his point, he's right. I can't really think of any place to move the factories to that wouldn't just be kind of pointless. I mean, pretty much everyone uses deadly force against muslims. (Maybe someplace where they don't have muslims? We might be able to move there?) In any case, I should probably just let him, (or her), outline what their own point was.
    - kevinwang 8y ago
      So then we might as well just leave the factories in China then?
    - igivanov 8y ago
      If you want to dispense justice, then I should remind you that Lady Justice is blindfolded for a reason. If you want to selectively punish China but not others then it's not justice, those who are punished immediately see that it has nothing to do with their bad behaviour.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
kinsomo 8y ago
> In other news, the US, NATO and friends in this century alone destroyed Iraq, Libya, almost destroyed Syria and Yemen and did a few other nasty things that resulted in at least a million dead. Do you have a big enough item 5 for that? Destroyed? You'll need to provide some pretty strong proof to convince me those countries aren't there anymore. Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends" (that is, unless you want to do something silly like trace things too far back to look for butterflies, ignore a lot of recent history, and remove all agency from the locals).
- boomboomsubban 8y ago
  Proof? Libya has currently been broken into four or more warring states, each controlling some part of Libya. >Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends". By providing the various sides with arms and support. Though I think you can put much of the blame of the civil wars staring on the US, even if you disagree the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support.
  - kinsomo 8y ago
    >> Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends". > Though I think you can put much of the blame of the civil wars staring on the US, even if you disagree the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support. I think that's profoundly ignorant and belies lazy thinking, especially in relation to Syria. The precise cause of the civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime [1] [2] [3] [4]. As for "providing the various sides with arms and support," I would be gobsmacked if you could show the US provided arms to Assad, especially in significant numbers. I recall significant dithering by the Obama administration over the level of support to give the rebels, and the fact that the US withheld arms to the rebels (over fears of inadvertently supporting Islamic extremists) is what allowed ISIS to grow so strong and eclipse the more liberal rebel groups. > the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support. If only because the support of other nations would have had a relatively greater effect [5]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_of_events_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_of_events_of_the_Syrian... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War_(January%E2%80%93April_2011) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_W... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/world/middleeast/26syria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/world/middleeast/26syria.... [4] https://carnegieendowment.org/2016/11/22/syria-s-path-from-civic-uprising-to-civil-war-pub-66171 https://carnegieendowment.org/2016/11/22/syria-s-path-from-c... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syr...

em3rgent0rdr 8y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

whatsstolat 8y ago
Parent makes a point though. Should we boycott everything?
bilbo0s 8y ago
Doesn't make his point any less valid in this PARTICULAR context. I mean, where are we going to move the factories if the prerequisite is "No brutal use of deadly force against Muslims" ?
- em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
  Was he making a relevant point besides that the West/US has done bad things too?
  - bilbo0s 8y ago
    I guess I inferred that he was pointing out the futility of looking for a place to move factories that is untarnished in this regard. If that was his point, he's right. I can't really think of any place to move the factories to that wouldn't just be kind of pointless. I mean, pretty much everyone uses deadly force against muslims. (Maybe someplace where they don't have muslims? We might be able to move there?) In any case, I should probably just let him, (or her), outline what their own point was.
  - kevinwang 8y ago
    So then we might as well just leave the factories in China then?
  - igivanov 8y ago
    If you want to dispense justice, then I should remind you that Lady Justice is blindfolded for a reason. If you want to selectively punish China but not others then it's not justice, those who are punished immediately see that it has nothing to do with their bad behaviour.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

kinsomo 8y ago

> In other news, the US, NATO and friends in this century alone destroyed Iraq, Libya, almost destroyed Syria and Yemen and did a few other nasty things that resulted in at least a million dead. Do you have a big enough item 5 for that? Destroyed? You'll need to provide some pretty strong proof to convince me those countries aren't there anymore. Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends" (that is, unless you want to do something silly like trace things too far back to look for butterflies, ignore a lot of recent history, and remove all agency from the locals).

boomboomsubban 8y ago
Proof? Libya has currently been broken into four or more warring states, each controlling some part of Libya. >Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends". By providing the various sides with arms and support. Though I think you can put much of the blame of the civil wars staring on the US, even if you disagree the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support.
- kinsomo 8y ago
  >> Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends". > Though I think you can put much of the blame of the civil wars staring on the US, even if you disagree the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support. I think that's profoundly ignorant and belies lazy thinking, especially in relation to Syria. The precise cause of the civil war was the domestic policies of the Assad regime [1] [2] [3] [4]. As for "providing the various sides with arms and support," I would be gobsmacked if you could show the US provided arms to Assad, especially in significant numbers. I recall significant dithering by the Obama administration over the level of support to give the rebels, and the fact that the US withheld arms to the rebels (over fears of inadvertently supporting Islamic extremists) is what allowed ISIS to grow so strong and eclipse the more liberal rebel groups. > the wars are still dramatically different than it would be without US support. If only because the support of other nations would have had a relatively greater effect [5]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_of_events_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Course_of_events_of_the_Syrian... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War_(January%E2%80%93April_2011) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_W... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/world/middleeast/26syria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/world/middleeast/26syria.... [4] https://carnegieendowment.org/2016/11/22/syria-s-path-from-civic-uprising-to-civil-war-pub-66171 https://carnegieendowment.org/2016/11/22/syria-s-path-from-c... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syr...