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Perhaps, I should not be surprised the first response here is, "Well maybe that's your fault for not having a crystal ball which can predict the actions of stra

Perhaps, I should not be surprised the first response here is, "Well maybe that's your fault for not having a crystal ball which can predict the actions of strangers." That attitude is part of the problem. Similarly, "My experience was fine, so clearly your bad experience needs to be invalidated" is a toxic attitude.

craftyguy 8y ago
Well, there are literally millions of people who don't share your same experience, so rather than claim that everyone is wrong and open source development doesn't work, maybe you are doing something wrong. Just a suggestion, because it totally does work for many people. Maybe you just have to find the right group of people to work with. There are a few shitty projects, but you'll find bad apples in many areas of life.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  > so rather than claim that everyone is wrong I didn't. This is your inability to tolerate a different viewpoint. I didn't say you had a bad experience, just that I can't relate to the good ones. I qualified every statement with _I_, _my experience_, and _feel_ and you're still willing to stand up and argue with me about it. And that is, in fact, a toxic attitude. You're arguing that I'm neither allowed to have nor relate negative experiences. Stop doing that. Stop doing what you're doing right now. It serves no purpose other than to further embed this toxic attitude into a community you obviously love and want to represent positively.
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    Stop interpretting everything as a personal attack. It makes it seem like you were the bad apple, by immediately conflating contradictory statements and experiences into personal attacks. I would not want to work with such a person, in an open source project or otherwise. I merely suggested that your bad experiences might have been because of the projects you worked with, so a general statement of "open source bad" might be a bit extreme because many others have had positive experiences. I'm sorry you had a shitty experience working on open source projects. That sucks for everyone. Not all open source projects have shitty leaders, but some do, and it's not always obvious which ones those are until you've invested some non-zero amount of time/effort into it.
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      > Not all open source projects have shitty leaders, but some do, and it's not always obvious which ones those are until you've invested some non-zero amount of time/effort into it. If this was your intent, then I apologize for misreading it. But being very clear: this is not how the original text of your post read.
- ppseafield 8y ago
  Now he's contributed his impression and every comment is browbeating him or criticising him. Sounds like he got very unlucky. Wouldn't it be worth it to discuss how that could be mitigated? Also, people always forget the rest of that phrase: A bad apple spoils the bunch. Pretty important nuance!
tonto 8y ago
Your original comment is pretty toxic. What do you want to imply by your original anecdotal comment other than grandstanding? This is a research article, and you could suggest that the researchers look at more negative aspects of open source that could affect developers but to say basically open source is terrible is ridiculous
- KirinDave 8y ago
  How is relating my experiences adjacent to the subject of the article, as someone who has in fact released two rather large open source projects (one with a fair amount of ongoing traction) toxic? Just because it documented experiences that were negative? The responses so far: - It's your fault for doing it (true, but unhelpful). - Maybe you should care (I released the original work, I cared enough) - Even talking about adjacent experiences is inappropriate and and you should stop. (yours)
- nickpsecurity 8y ago
  If they're doing research, they'd need the negative reports for accuracy. KirinDave would be one data point among others in that. We know they exist since Nadia Eghbal did collect that information: https://medium.com/@nayafia/how-i-stumbled-upon-the-internet-s-biggest-blind-spot-b9aa23618c58 https://medium.com/@nayafia/how-i-stumbled-upon-the-internet... If anything, people should see the big picture of the range of experiences they might have so they're not being misled into getting into something that's a gamble. It might be good for them, it might be really bad, and it might be something in between. FOSS promoters don't usually sell it that way, though.

craftyguy 8y ago

Well, there are literally millions of people who don't share your same experience, so rather than claim that everyone is wrong and open source development doesn't work, maybe you are doing something wrong. Just a suggestion, because it totally does work for many people. Maybe you just have to find the right group of people to work with. There are a few shitty projects, but you'll find bad apples in many areas of life.

KirinDave 8y ago
> so rather than claim that everyone is wrong I didn't. This is your inability to tolerate a different viewpoint. I didn't say you had a bad experience, just that I can't relate to the good ones. I qualified every statement with _I_, _my experience_, and _feel_ and you're still willing to stand up and argue with me about it. And that is, in fact, a toxic attitude. You're arguing that I'm neither allowed to have nor relate negative experiences. Stop doing that. Stop doing what you're doing right now. It serves no purpose other than to further embed this toxic attitude into a community you obviously love and want to represent positively.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  Stop interpretting everything as a personal attack. It makes it seem like you were the bad apple, by immediately conflating contradictory statements and experiences into personal attacks. I would not want to work with such a person, in an open source project or otherwise. I merely suggested that your bad experiences might have been because of the projects you worked with, so a general statement of "open source bad" might be a bit extreme because many others have had positive experiences. I'm sorry you had a shitty experience working on open source projects. That sucks for everyone. Not all open source projects have shitty leaders, but some do, and it's not always obvious which ones those are until you've invested some non-zero amount of time/effort into it.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    > Not all open source projects have shitty leaders, but some do, and it's not always obvious which ones those are until you've invested some non-zero amount of time/effort into it. If this was your intent, then I apologize for misreading it. But being very clear: this is not how the original text of your post read.
ppseafield 8y ago
Now he's contributed his impression and every comment is browbeating him or criticising him. Sounds like he got very unlucky. Wouldn't it be worth it to discuss how that could be mitigated? Also, people always forget the rest of that phrase: A bad apple spoils the bunch. Pretty important nuance!

tonto 8y ago

Your original comment is pretty toxic. What do you want to imply by your original anecdotal comment other than grandstanding? This is a research article, and you could suggest that the researchers look at more negative aspects of open source that could affect developers but to say basically open source is terrible is ridiculous

KirinDave 8y ago
How is relating my experiences adjacent to the subject of the article, as someone who has in fact released two rather large open source projects (one with a fair amount of ongoing traction) toxic? Just because it documented experiences that were negative? The responses so far: - It's your fault for doing it (true, but unhelpful). - Maybe you should care (I released the original work, I cared enough) - Even talking about adjacent experiences is inappropriate and and you should stop. (yours)
nickpsecurity 8y ago
If they're doing research, they'd need the negative reports for accuracy. KirinDave would be one data point among others in that. We know they exist since Nadia Eghbal did collect that information: https://medium.com/@nayafia/how-i-stumbled-upon-the-internet-s-biggest-blind-spot-b9aa23618c58 https://medium.com/@nayafia/how-i-stumbled-upon-the-internet... If anything, people should see the big picture of the range of experiences they might have so they're not being misled into getting into something that's a gamble. It might be good for them, it might be really bad, and it might be something in between. FOSS promoters don't usually sell it that way, though.