4 ms·

The United States has privacy laws also, including a lot of regulation of the credit rating business. The laws are just created on a case by case basis, there i

The United States has privacy laws also, including a lot of regulation of the credit rating business. The laws are just created on a case by case basis, there is no general right to privacy from other private actors.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> there is no general right to privacy For better or worse, American society chose to enshrine the First Amendment and its right to free speech over personal privacy. I personally believe speech is the more delicate right.
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  The "right" of free speech really inst free when espousing unpopular views has many lasting damages. You can get fired from a job. You can get evicted. You can have your mortgage cancelled. You can be denied service at stores. Sure free speech is great and all, but it also means potentially subjecting yourself to poverty. I recall the story where the lady said over twitter, " I'm going to africa, hope I don't get aids. Oh that's right I'm white". Justine Sacco, I think. Or dongle jokes.... (EDIT: already at -2. I figure people would understand what it means to be banned by faceless entities and the like over free speech. I know I don't have free speech - There's many topics in which if I discuss would have lasting job ramifications. I also refrain from many opinions about societal issues in which is republican vs democrat. Tl;Dr. Free speech may mean government cant imprison me for complaints against politicians, but my fellow man can make sure I live under a bridge.)
  - sk5t 8y ago
    The right to free speech in the USA concerns political speech, and the relationship between the people and their government. It is not a shield against punishment by society for controversial or ill-considered comments. Indeed, it likely would prove impossible to grant such protections without limiting freedom of political or religious expression.
    - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
      Your first mistake is believing in the fiction that corporations are people. Just because judges said so, doesn't make it true. My primary complaint comes down to this country coming to an understanding of "right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" apply to actual people, and shouldn't apply to companies and capricious decisions. Things people do on their private time should have absolutely no bearing on where they work, where they live, or where they shop. We already have laws on companies that restrict many different things. Companies can't violate the EEOC: they can't legally ask if you're married. Nor can they use your racial identity as a reason to hire/fire you. (they do, just under the guise of selective enforcement and firing for 'insubordination') > The right to free speech in the USA concerns political speech, and the relationship between the people and their government. It is not a shield against punishment by society for controversial or ill-considered comments. Indeed, it likely would prove impossible to grant such protections without limiting freedom of political or religious expression. And there was something that bothered me with your post... I've read similar kind of comments regarding desegregation in the South. Not that I'm calling you racist, mind you. But there were people who doubted similarly, and used that as an excuse to not make those changes. Fortunately, they were wrong.
      - danso 8y ago
        > Things people do on their private time should have absolutely no bearing on where they work, where they live, or where they shop. Yes, you are correct that the U.S. has passed laws that take a hard line against certain forms of discrimination, especially when it comes to employment and housing. But even a law as accepted and adhered today as The Americans with Disabilities Act (one of the laws EEOC enforces [0]) is not even 30 years old. And in that brief time, into today, it has ongoing battles and controversies. The definition of "disabled" is most definitely not universally agreed upon [1]. Nor is there an easy consensus about the costs society should bear to follow the ADA. One example on HN that comes to my mind is this thread last year [2], in which many folks (perhaps the majority) argued that UC Berkeley should be allowed to continue producing online lectures without subtitles for the hearing-impaired. You're probably aware even the most seemingly obvious consequence of the 1st Amendment -- that the government cannot censor people's free speech -- has been a continual matter of litigation and debate over the past century in every domain, from student protests to national security. And yet you think that an expansive interpretation of the First Amendment -- such that no one in America should suffer negative consequences for expressing beliefs -- would have no complications or unintended consequences. How are you so wrapped up in your own predicament -- having to self-censor because you fear people may dislike and even shun you for your personal opinions -- that you can't see the obvious and immediate ways in which such a law would severely curtail the free speech of everyone, particularly the folks who do not have the resources to go to court? If you believe the 1st Amendment stops the government from abridging free speech, isn't it also blatantly obvious how problematic it would be to enforce this law? (Hint: who do you think runs the regulators and courts who would be in charge of enforcing and passing judgement?) Let's pretend we have the power to time travel and go back to rewrite the 1st Amendment; I challenge you to come up with just the words/phrases that would reasonably describe the free speech protection you want. [0] https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/history/45th/ada20/ada_cases.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/history/45th/ada20/ada_cases.cfm [1] https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=521f98d2-a9b0-4712-8e25-b8797ab93d21 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=521f98d2-a9b0... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13768856 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13768856
- hnuser1234 8y ago
  I'm not making the connection how free speech and privacy are mutually exclusive?
  - danso 8y ago
    Maybe not “mutually exclusive”, but there are conflicts. For example, some EU countries media are traditionally more reticent about publishing identities of the arrested than the American media is. The most obvious recent conflict is “Right to be Forgotten” laws in EU vs the U.S.
    - blackbrokkoli 8y ago
      Well, can you name an example where the EU focus on privacy instead of free speech had an actual negative effect? Because as I see it, witch hunting old people who fake recipes for their opiod addiction or adding "massive national fame" to the list of motives for school shooters doesn't seem to benefit anyone beside the infotainment industry - and anyone who doesn't like actual coverage instead of sensationalism. The very essence of free speech seems to be equally there in the EU (if not more) as it is in the US, or am I mistaken?
      - danso 8y ago
        Anything that requires a takedown will have negative consequences depending on who you are: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/05/right-to-be-forgotten-google-europe-ecj-data-spain https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/05/right-...
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

> there is no general right to privacy For better or worse, American society chose to enshrine the First Amendment and its right to free speech over personal privacy. I personally believe speech is the more delicate right.

crankylinuxuser 8y ago
The "right" of free speech really inst free when espousing unpopular views has many lasting damages. You can get fired from a job. You can get evicted. You can have your mortgage cancelled. You can be denied service at stores. Sure free speech is great and all, but it also means potentially subjecting yourself to poverty. I recall the story where the lady said over twitter, " I'm going to africa, hope I don't get aids. Oh that's right I'm white". Justine Sacco, I think. Or dongle jokes.... (EDIT: already at -2. I figure people would understand what it means to be banned by faceless entities and the like over free speech. I know I don't have free speech - There's many topics in which if I discuss would have lasting job ramifications. I also refrain from many opinions about societal issues in which is republican vs democrat. Tl;Dr. Free speech may mean government cant imprison me for complaints against politicians, but my fellow man can make sure I live under a bridge.)
- sk5t 8y ago
  The right to free speech in the USA concerns political speech, and the relationship between the people and their government. It is not a shield against punishment by society for controversial or ill-considered comments. Indeed, it likely would prove impossible to grant such protections without limiting freedom of political or religious expression.
  - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
    Your first mistake is believing in the fiction that corporations are people. Just because judges said so, doesn't make it true. My primary complaint comes down to this country coming to an understanding of "right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" apply to actual people, and shouldn't apply to companies and capricious decisions. Things people do on their private time should have absolutely no bearing on where they work, where they live, or where they shop. We already have laws on companies that restrict many different things. Companies can't violate the EEOC: they can't legally ask if you're married. Nor can they use your racial identity as a reason to hire/fire you. (they do, just under the guise of selective enforcement and firing for 'insubordination') > The right to free speech in the USA concerns political speech, and the relationship between the people and their government. It is not a shield against punishment by society for controversial or ill-considered comments. Indeed, it likely would prove impossible to grant such protections without limiting freedom of political or religious expression. And there was something that bothered me with your post... I've read similar kind of comments regarding desegregation in the South. Not that I'm calling you racist, mind you. But there were people who doubted similarly, and used that as an excuse to not make those changes. Fortunately, they were wrong.
    - danso 8y ago
      > Things people do on their private time should have absolutely no bearing on where they work, where they live, or where they shop. Yes, you are correct that the U.S. has passed laws that take a hard line against certain forms of discrimination, especially when it comes to employment and housing. But even a law as accepted and adhered today as The Americans with Disabilities Act (one of the laws EEOC enforces [0]) is not even 30 years old. And in that brief time, into today, it has ongoing battles and controversies. The definition of "disabled" is most definitely not universally agreed upon [1]. Nor is there an easy consensus about the costs society should bear to follow the ADA. One example on HN that comes to my mind is this thread last year [2], in which many folks (perhaps the majority) argued that UC Berkeley should be allowed to continue producing online lectures without subtitles for the hearing-impaired. You're probably aware even the most seemingly obvious consequence of the 1st Amendment -- that the government cannot censor people's free speech -- has been a continual matter of litigation and debate over the past century in every domain, from student protests to national security. And yet you think that an expansive interpretation of the First Amendment -- such that no one in America should suffer negative consequences for expressing beliefs -- would have no complications or unintended consequences. How are you so wrapped up in your own predicament -- having to self-censor because you fear people may dislike and even shun you for your personal opinions -- that you can't see the obvious and immediate ways in which such a law would severely curtail the free speech of everyone, particularly the folks who do not have the resources to go to court? If you believe the 1st Amendment stops the government from abridging free speech, isn't it also blatantly obvious how problematic it would be to enforce this law? (Hint: who do you think runs the regulators and courts who would be in charge of enforcing and passing judgement?) Let's pretend we have the power to time travel and go back to rewrite the 1st Amendment; I challenge you to come up with just the words/phrases that would reasonably describe the free speech protection you want. [0] https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/history/45th/ada20/ada_cases.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/history/45th/ada20/ada_cases.cfm [1] https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=521f98d2-a9b0-4712-8e25-b8797ab93d21 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=521f98d2-a9b0... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13768856 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13768856
hnuser1234 8y ago
I'm not making the connection how free speech and privacy are mutually exclusive?
- danso 8y ago
  Maybe not “mutually exclusive”, but there are conflicts. For example, some EU countries media are traditionally more reticent about publishing identities of the arrested than the American media is. The most obvious recent conflict is “Right to be Forgotten” laws in EU vs the U.S.
  - blackbrokkoli 8y ago
    Well, can you name an example where the EU focus on privacy instead of free speech had an actual negative effect? Because as I see it, witch hunting old people who fake recipes for their opiod addiction or adding "massive national fame" to the list of motives for school shooters doesn't seem to benefit anyone beside the infotainment industry - and anyone who doesn't like actual coverage instead of sensationalism. The very essence of free speech seems to be equally there in the EU (if not more) as it is in the US, or am I mistaken?
    - danso 8y ago
      Anything that requires a takedown will have negative consequences depending on who you are: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/05/right-to-be-forgotten-google-europe-ecj-data-spain https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/05/right-...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]