4 ms·

I think a lot of the reason why I (can't speak for others) went from a super strict traffic law observer to "slow and roll through stop signs if nobody is there

by d1zzy 8y ago

I think a lot of the reason why I (can't speak for others) went from a super strict traffic law observer to "slow and roll through stop signs if nobody is there" on a bike isn't just the momentum conservation, which I agree is one of the big factors, but think about this: do you really think that drivers would make a full stop, as much as they do now, if suddenly they wouldn't have access to freeways and other high speed roads with no/synchronized/very few intersections and instead would be forced to take residential roads full of stops? This factor is easy to miss for most drivers, but they can do this experiment on themselves, change their commute route to only include very low traffic (ie "safe") roads, and take that route every day, every week for a few months (it was a slow "grinding" process). Let's see then if they still continue to make a full stop as before for every one of those 20 new full STOP intersections...

vvanders 8y ago
Yes. Also, if you want to share the road that goes both ways. If I have to obey the laws that keep everyone safe so should you.
- d1zzy 8y ago
  Easy to say. I want to see how many of the drivers stating such things would still do a full stop at an empty intersection after having biked through it hundreds of times before and it's just one of the many such stops they have on their commute route every day. Basically I want to see statistics/studies. We may conclude then that it's not the fault of the individual if the large majority of us end up bending the rules given the same circumstances but it may be the fault of the circumstances (which are in the control of cities/etc who control public infrastructure).
  - vvanders 8y ago
    Cool, go off and grab that data. In the meantime though, obey the laws of the road or stay off it.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    I want to see how many of the drivers stating such things would still do a full stop at an empty intersection after having biked through it hundreds of times before and it's just one of the many such stops they have on their commute route every day. Basically I want to see statistics/studies. We may conclude then that it's not the fault of the individual if the large majority of us end up bending the rules So, you're entitled to bend the rules, so long as enough other people are with you? Why don't you extrapolate the Kantian Imperative on that one? This is precisely why we can't have nice things. I guess we should just give up on trash cans, and everyone should just throw everything in the street.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
pyoung 8y ago
Anecdote, but if you hang out in the central/outer sunset neighborhood in SF, you will see this behavior. Tons of stop signs with limited access to thoroughfares in a quiet low-traffic neighborhood. I would say well over 25% of cars do rolling stops, and every now and then you will see a driver that doesn't even bother stopping.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  I would say well over 25% of cars do rolling stops Rolling stops in cars still tend to approximate the effect of a complete stop. Rolling stops on bikes tend to approximate the effect of the stop sign not being there at all. It's two different cost/benefit situations producing two different outcomes.
  - jchanimal 8y ago
    The distinction seems to be that one bothers you more. The car, even if it is driven completely legally and comes to a complete stop always, is still creating more negative externalities than the bike, as long as the rider is paying attention.
  - pyoung 8y ago
    Perhaps I should clarify what I mean by rolling stop. The behavior I see is probably better described as a yield. The car will slow down, to 5-10 mph at the stop sign before accelerating back up to 25-35. I regularly walk through this neighborhood, and its outright dangerous. I feel much safer walking in downtown SF. My hunch is these drivers are mostly just looking for other cars and cops, as I have had a ton of close encounters as pedestrian. And to make matters worse, the streets are not very well lit at night.
  - jacobolus 8y ago
    Rolling stops in cars “approximate” full stops closer in the sense that 5–10 miles/hour is closer to 0 than it is to the 30 miles/hour they were traveling before. By contrast, 5–10 miles/hour on a bike is about equally far from 0 and the 15 miles/hour the bike was traveling before. The biggest difference though is that getting hit by a car doing a rolling stop will put you in the hospital and possibly kill you.
stcredzero 8y ago
do you really think that drivers would make a full stop, as much as they do now, if suddenly they wouldn't have access to freeways and other high speed roads with no/synchronized/very few intersections and instead would be forced to take residential roads full of stops? Yes. There are drivers who never drive on freeways, and in my experience, they always come to a complete stop. My ex was one such driver for awhile. change their commute route to only include very low traffic (ie "safe") roads, and take that route every day, every week for a few months (it was a slow "grinding" process). Let's see then if they still continue to make a full stop as before for every one of those 20 new full STOP intersections... Even in this situation, my experience is that conscientious automobile drivers still approximate the effect of a full stop. There are some idiot automobile drivers who don't approximate the effect of a full stop, just as there are idiot bike riders. The cost-benefit conditions are simply different, and bicycle "momentum hacking" tends to take people far away from what a careful car driver would be doing. The fact that you'd entertain such a thought about residential drivers makes me question your conscientiousness.

by d1zzy 8y ago

vvanders 8y ago

Yes. Also, if you want to share the road that goes both ways. If I have to obey the laws that keep everyone safe so should you.

d1zzy 8y ago
Easy to say. I want to see how many of the drivers stating such things would still do a full stop at an empty intersection after having biked through it hundreds of times before and it's just one of the many such stops they have on their commute route every day. Basically I want to see statistics/studies. We may conclude then that it's not the fault of the individual if the large majority of us end up bending the rules given the same circumstances but it may be the fault of the circumstances (which are in the control of cities/etc who control public infrastructure).
- vvanders 8y ago
  Cool, go off and grab that data. In the meantime though, obey the laws of the road or stay off it.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  I want to see how many of the drivers stating such things would still do a full stop at an empty intersection after having biked through it hundreds of times before and it's just one of the many such stops they have on their commute route every day. Basically I want to see statistics/studies. We may conclude then that it's not the fault of the individual if the large majority of us end up bending the rules So, you're entitled to bend the rules, so long as enough other people are with you? Why don't you extrapolate the Kantian Imperative on that one? This is precisely why we can't have nice things. I guess we should just give up on trash cans, and everyone should just throw everything in the street.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

pyoung 8y ago

Anecdote, but if you hang out in the central/outer sunset neighborhood in SF, you will see this behavior. Tons of stop signs with limited access to thoroughfares in a quiet low-traffic neighborhood. I would say well over 25% of cars do rolling stops, and every now and then you will see a driver that doesn't even bother stopping.

stcredzero 8y ago
I would say well over 25% of cars do rolling stops Rolling stops in cars still tend to approximate the effect of a complete stop. Rolling stops on bikes tend to approximate the effect of the stop sign not being there at all. It's two different cost/benefit situations producing two different outcomes.
- jchanimal 8y ago
  The distinction seems to be that one bothers you more. The car, even if it is driven completely legally and comes to a complete stop always, is still creating more negative externalities than the bike, as long as the rider is paying attention.
- pyoung 8y ago
  Perhaps I should clarify what I mean by rolling stop. The behavior I see is probably better described as a yield. The car will slow down, to 5-10 mph at the stop sign before accelerating back up to 25-35. I regularly walk through this neighborhood, and its outright dangerous. I feel much safer walking in downtown SF. My hunch is these drivers are mostly just looking for other cars and cops, as I have had a ton of close encounters as pedestrian. And to make matters worse, the streets are not very well lit at night.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  Rolling stops in cars “approximate” full stops closer in the sense that 5–10 miles/hour is closer to 0 than it is to the 30 miles/hour they were traveling before. By contrast, 5–10 miles/hour on a bike is about equally far from 0 and the 15 miles/hour the bike was traveling before. The biggest difference though is that getting hit by a car doing a rolling stop will put you in the hospital and possibly kill you.

stcredzero 8y ago

do you really think that drivers would make a full stop, as much as they do now, if suddenly they wouldn't have access to freeways and other high speed roads with no/synchronized/very few intersections and instead would be forced to take residential roads full of stops? Yes. There are drivers who never drive on freeways, and in my experience, they always come to a complete stop. My ex was one such driver for awhile. change their commute route to only include very low traffic (ie "safe") roads, and take that route every day, every week for a few months (it was a slow "grinding" process). Let's see then if they still continue to make a full stop as before for every one of those 20 new full STOP intersections... Even in this situation, my experience is that conscientious automobile drivers still approximate the effect of a full stop. There are some idiot automobile drivers who don't approximate the effect of a full stop, just as there are idiot bike riders. The cost-benefit conditions are simply different, and bicycle "momentum hacking" tends to take people far away from what a careful car driver would be doing. The fact that you'd entertain such a thought about residential drivers makes me question your conscientiousness.