7 ms·

Dark Patterns in UI/UX Design

89 points by znq 8y ago

RobertRoberts 8y ago
Has anyone actually lost anything of value from a dark pattern? If so, then this seems the place to start the discussion. Until real loss happens, dark patterns will persist.
- placatedmayhem 8y ago
  The article mentions the Windows 10 upgrade debacle, which caused data loss for some users. The video at the top of darkpatterns.org, linked by the article, discusses the LinkedIn lawsuit concerning linking to users' contact lists.¹ ¹https://youtu.be/kxkrdLI6e6M https://youtu.be/kxkrdLI6e6M
- sbhn 8y ago
  A company I worked for put the bonus acceptance tick box into an automated pop up after successful registration. Peoples reflex reaction to a pop up is to close it straight away when one appears. Most bonuses were never accepted so never awarded. Lots of money saved for the company advertising ‘register now’ bonuses.
  - overcast 8y ago
    Sorry, bonus acceptance messages? Like, call now to claim your prize, but for your own employee? I've never heard of anything so absurd. I would love to see the fallout of that tactic in employee retention.
    - daveFNbuck 8y ago
      > Lots of money saved for the company advertising ‘register now’ bonuses. So they say "register a new account for my site and get $10", then trick you into dismissing the $10 award as a pop-up.
  - usaphp 8y ago
    > Peoples reflex reaction to a pop up is to close it straight away when one appears. It greatly depends on a user type, it might be true for tech users but average Joe will read the pop up almost everytime.
    - Zombieball 8y ago
      I never realized this. Any sources? A quick google brought me to this aritcle (https://sumo.com/stories/pop-up-statistics https://sumo.com/stories/pop-up-statistics) which indicates a conversion rate of 3-9% for pop ups requesting info / sign-up. So you may be right!
      - sbhn 8y ago
        Yeah, so you register on the site, press next, your registration is successful, meanwhile a pop up was initiated which contains t&cs and acceptance confirmation. Using your estimate, 3-9% of bonuses were accepted, and needed to be paid to the new customer. It’s a dark pattern
        Zombieball 8y ago
        Yeah it probably is. I wasn’t commenting on the dark pattern though. I was surprised to hear that “common users” don’t just auto dismiss pop ups.
    - sbhn 8y ago
      Dark patterns only need to work some of the time. However putting important terms, conditions and acceptance into an unreliable pop up certainly works if you don’t really want your customer to see it or accept it
    - teddyh 8y ago
      “In fact, users don’t read anything. This may sound a little harsh, but you’ll see, when you do usability tests, that there are quite a few users who simply do not read words that you put on the screen. If you pop up an error box of any sort, they simply will not read it. This may be disconcerting to you as a programmer, because you imagine yourself as conducting a dialog with the user. Hey, user! You can’t open that file, we don’t support that file format! Still, experience shows that the more words you put on that dialog box, the fewer people will actually read it.” User Interface Design For Programmers (https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/10/24/user-interface-design-for-programmers/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/10/24/user-interface-des...)
- OnlyRepliesToBS 8y ago
  This argument is wonderful.
gayprogrammer 8y ago
I don't understand how the elevator story is an example of a dark pattern. I see that the sign did not effectively accomplish its goal, but that doesn't fit the definition given: the intent to trick users into doing something undesirable.
- extralego 8y ago
  I see what you mean, but I liked this example because it speaks to how innocent dark patterns can appear. I’ll try to explain. The only thing missing is the intention, which isn’t even specified in the story, so I think we lack the necessary information to say for sure. For example, let’s say a graphics designer were asked by their boss to make a sign to inform visitors that the elevator was broken. Then, let’s say the graphics designer discovered the company was holding interviews that day for new graphics designers who would replace them. If the sign were made as such to make those applicants late for their interview, we would be looking at a case of a dark pattern. If it were made as decoration, we wouldn’t be.
- s-shellfish 8y ago
  The original design was flawed. The new design understands the problem (people did not see the sign). The design is fixed. From there, intuition of how users interact with UX builds. The author is relating a personal story that illustrates the building of interactive components, the process of understanding users, and the differing motivations behind design. The elevator story is not an example of a dark pattern, but it illustrates the problem that comes with developing an awareness of how people think and interact with an interface. People can't have hyperfocus all the time, see through all intentions, be all knowing and all aware of every circumstance and event. Sometimes people are on autopilot, sometimes people take advantage of that. A lot of digital services today continue to be developed with this aesthetic in mind.
  - ezekg 8y ago
    > … a handwritten message in the middle of the elevator doors that said, “Out of service!” This was the first time that I learned about dark patterns. It’s confusing, because he literally says it’s a dark pattern. But it was really just better design for that particular problem.
guylepage3 8y ago
>You’re not designing for the company, but rather for the users who will interact with the product. So many engineer CEO’s really need to understand this. Engineers tend to skip over the first step in this process, defining the segment or demographic, and then end up just having their design team design to meet their esthetics. I’ve seen this at so many companies.
jackfrodo 8y ago
I recently registered as a user on Twitch, and was surprised by the amount of dark patterns there. It seems like every other action costs money, which isn't necessarily bad, but it makes me wary of clicking on anything because it seems half of them lead to a payment screen. It's just that there's no indication of what's a premium feature and what's not, and that's clearly intended to get users to want to perform an action and emphasizes what they're missing out on.
- _jal 8y ago
  > It's just that there's no indication of what's a premium feature and what's not This behavior drives me nuts, and I leave anywhere I see it and I can. It is just so hostile and obnoxious. I don't mind people wanting money for things, but this sort of thing immediately gives me the feeling of interacting with an adversary, that I need to consider implications and watch for double-crosses. It is really weird to me that people design their stores to feel untrustworthy and sneaky, but I guess it works well enough to keep them at it.
  - jackfrodo 8y ago
    Right, and I think it's bad in the long run. If Twitch wants to become a bluechip brand, they're going to have to do a lot to make me at least sorta believe that they have my best interests in mind.
nimbius 8y ago
Speaking as an automotive mechanic, This works well in the front-of-shop according to our manager. Tires, while a staple of the garage area, are for some reason kept on proud display in the windows and in the customer area of the shop. This isnt because customers like to look at tires, its because the smell apparently is found to be reassuring by the customer. Weird displays for exotic fluids are another good example...we have one where a customer turns a wheel to "feel" the viscosity of a motor oil versus a high-end brand. It doesnt translate into any substantial performance gains for the car frankly, as the engine is operating hundreds of degrees hotter than our shop, but the customer applies this experience to the car for some reason. we also use an interactive display for steering fluid to show customers a performance fluid, but nobody stops to consider most steering systems these days are hydraulically assisted.
- jandrese 8y ago
  Wow, this 0W20 feels so much more fluid than the 10W20! I've never considered that the tires in the waiting area were basically air "fresheners".
  - crooked-v 8y ago
    That makes me think of the small but very real business in "new car smell" scented sprays.
- ggg9990 8y ago
  I love the smell of new tires but never thought that the marketing industry had figured that out and was exploiting it. LOL.
thomascgalvin 8y ago
> Imagine you want to buy something: You pick it, add it to your cart, and go through the entire check out process. In the final step, you see that the company has added an extra cost that was not mentioned on previous web pages. This drives me insane. I was recently about to purchase something from theMysterious Package Company, which is kind of a "story by mail" thing. They send you notes and letters and trinkets and such, which come together to tell a story. The product I was interested in was like $85, which is steep but I really like the property it's based on, and I figured that since these were physical items that had to be physically mailed, the cost was probably justified. Until I got to the last page and they threw in an additional $25 shipping fee. Fuck that noise. And they kept spamming me with "you forgot to finish checking out!" emails for the next week.
- notatoad 8y ago
  that's not a "dark pattern", there's always a shipping fee. it's how literally every e-commerce site works. have you ever used the internet before? if you decided to assume that shipping would be free despite no evidence to suggest it would be, that's on you.
  - tracker1 8y ago
    In a lot of these cases the shipping itself is a large profit center. As actual shipping is usually lower.
    - notatoad 8y ago
      1. Is there any evidence to suggest that, it is this just general internet paranoia that's every company everywhere is a scam? 2. That doesn't contradict anything I said above.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- radley 8y ago
  Sounds like it's really $100 w/ $10 shipping and then they A/B tested the difference to find the sweet spot for sign-ups.
radley 8y ago
Unfortunately, the author doesn't really address how dark patterns apply to design. It seems to be more about his discovering that dark patterns is a thing, and that other designers should be aware of it. When I worked at Zynga, I was very confused by their farming mechanics. Good UX meant users shouldn't need to wait hours to proceed with their game. But that annoying wait period created an itch that drove micro-transactions. Was that a dark pattern? No. There was a decent understanding between user and service how it worked. The distinction of dark pattern is when that understanding is broken by tricking the user into an unexpected obligation.
- jgimenez 8y ago
  Do you honestly think making a user pay because you introduced an artificial and annoying wait is in benefit of the user?
test6554 8y ago
I already have an email filter for the word "unsubscribe". it goes straight to my trash as well as "preferences" for people who think I should "manage my preferences"
- Bromskloss 8y ago
  Do you never voluntarily subscribe to anything?
superkuh 8y ago
The darkest of these patterns of simple and becoming ubiquitous: nothing displays unless you have javascript enabled, not even text, images, or other static content. NASA.gov is a prime example of this. So the user leaves JS on and then the site does a whole bunch of bullshit unrelated to the site service using JS. A slightly less, but more overtly, evil version of this is hiding everything behind an opaque div that is only cleared when JS on their domains is enabled. Reddit's new design is a prime example of this.
tracker1 8y ago
I usually rage quit when I see dark patterns. The only way to win is not to play... ... Global Thermonuclear War
antonkm 8y ago
> How many times have you been asked to put in your credit card information for a free trial or version of something? I just paid Pingdom $100 since my trial was done. Didn't need to confirm, the card was drawn since I added it on registration.

89 points by znq 8y ago

Has anyone actually lost anything of value from a dark pattern? If so, then this seems the place to start the discussion. Until real loss happens, dark patterns will persist.

placatedmayhem 8y ago
The article mentions the Windows 10 upgrade debacle, which caused data loss for some users. The video at the top of darkpatterns.org, linked by the article, discusses the LinkedIn lawsuit concerning linking to users' contact lists.¹ ¹https://youtu.be/kxkrdLI6e6M https://youtu.be/kxkrdLI6e6M
sbhn 8y ago
A company I worked for put the bonus acceptance tick box into an automated pop up after successful registration. Peoples reflex reaction to a pop up is to close it straight away when one appears. Most bonuses were never accepted so never awarded. Lots of money saved for the company advertising ‘register now’ bonuses.
- overcast 8y ago
  Sorry, bonus acceptance messages? Like, call now to claim your prize, but for your own employee? I've never heard of anything so absurd. I would love to see the fallout of that tactic in employee retention.
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    > Lots of money saved for the company advertising ‘register now’ bonuses. So they say "register a new account for my site and get $10", then trick you into dismissing the $10 award as a pop-up.
- usaphp 8y ago
  > Peoples reflex reaction to a pop up is to close it straight away when one appears. It greatly depends on a user type, it might be true for tech users but average Joe will read the pop up almost everytime.
  - Zombieball 8y ago
    I never realized this. Any sources? A quick google brought me to this aritcle (https://sumo.com/stories/pop-up-statistics https://sumo.com/stories/pop-up-statistics) which indicates a conversion rate of 3-9% for pop ups requesting info / sign-up. So you may be right!
    - sbhn 8y ago
      Yeah, so you register on the site, press next, your registration is successful, meanwhile a pop up was initiated which contains t&cs and acceptance confirmation. Using your estimate, 3-9% of bonuses were accepted, and needed to be paid to the new customer. It’s a dark pattern
      - Zombieball 8y ago
        Yeah it probably is. I wasn’t commenting on the dark pattern though. I was surprised to hear that “common users” don’t just auto dismiss pop ups.
  - sbhn 8y ago
    Dark patterns only need to work some of the time. However putting important terms, conditions and acceptance into an unreliable pop up certainly works if you don’t really want your customer to see it or accept it
  - teddyh 8y ago
    “In fact, users don’t read anything. This may sound a little harsh, but you’ll see, when you do usability tests, that there are quite a few users who simply do not read words that you put on the screen. If you pop up an error box of any sort, they simply will not read it. This may be disconcerting to you as a programmer, because you imagine yourself as conducting a dialog with the user. Hey, user! You can’t open that file, we don’t support that file format! Still, experience shows that the more words you put on that dialog box, the fewer people will actually read it.” User Interface Design For Programmers (https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/10/24/user-interface-design-for-programmers/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/10/24/user-interface-des...)
OnlyRepliesToBS 8y ago
This argument is wonderful.

gayprogrammer 8y ago

I don't understand how the elevator story is an example of a dark pattern. I see that the sign did not effectively accomplish its goal, but that doesn't fit the definition given: the intent to trick users into doing something undesirable.

extralego 8y ago
I see what you mean, but I liked this example because it speaks to how innocent dark patterns can appear. I’ll try to explain. The only thing missing is the intention, which isn’t even specified in the story, so I think we lack the necessary information to say for sure. For example, let’s say a graphics designer were asked by their boss to make a sign to inform visitors that the elevator was broken. Then, let’s say the graphics designer discovered the company was holding interviews that day for new graphics designers who would replace them. If the sign were made as such to make those applicants late for their interview, we would be looking at a case of a dark pattern. If it were made as decoration, we wouldn’t be.
s-shellfish 8y ago
The original design was flawed. The new design understands the problem (people did not see the sign). The design is fixed. From there, intuition of how users interact with UX builds. The author is relating a personal story that illustrates the building of interactive components, the process of understanding users, and the differing motivations behind design. The elevator story is not an example of a dark pattern, but it illustrates the problem that comes with developing an awareness of how people think and interact with an interface. People can't have hyperfocus all the time, see through all intentions, be all knowing and all aware of every circumstance and event. Sometimes people are on autopilot, sometimes people take advantage of that. A lot of digital services today continue to be developed with this aesthetic in mind.
- ezekg 8y ago
  > … a handwritten message in the middle of the elevator doors that said, “Out of service!” This was the first time that I learned about dark patterns. It’s confusing, because he literally says it’s a dark pattern. But it was really just better design for that particular problem.

guylepage3 8y ago

>You’re not designing for the company, but rather for the users who will interact with the product. So many engineer CEO’s really need to understand this. Engineers tend to skip over the first step in this process, defining the segment or demographic, and then end up just having their design team design to meet their esthetics. I’ve seen this at so many companies.

jackfrodo 8y ago

I recently registered as a user on Twitch, and was surprised by the amount of dark patterns there. It seems like every other action costs money, which isn't necessarily bad, but it makes me wary of clicking on anything because it seems half of them lead to a payment screen. It's just that there's no indication of what's a premium feature and what's not, and that's clearly intended to get users to want to perform an action and emphasizes what they're missing out on.

_jal 8y ago
> It's just that there's no indication of what's a premium feature and what's not This behavior drives me nuts, and I leave anywhere I see it and I can. It is just so hostile and obnoxious. I don't mind people wanting money for things, but this sort of thing immediately gives me the feeling of interacting with an adversary, that I need to consider implications and watch for double-crosses. It is really weird to me that people design their stores to feel untrustworthy and sneaky, but I guess it works well enough to keep them at it.
- jackfrodo 8y ago
  Right, and I think it's bad in the long run. If Twitch wants to become a bluechip brand, they're going to have to do a lot to make me at least sorta believe that they have my best interests in mind.

nimbius 8y ago

Speaking as an automotive mechanic, This works well in the front-of-shop according to our manager. Tires, while a staple of the garage area, are for some reason kept on proud display in the windows and in the customer area of the shop. This isnt because customers like to look at tires, its because the smell apparently is found to be reassuring by the customer. Weird displays for exotic fluids are another good example...we have one where a customer turns a wheel to "feel" the viscosity of a motor oil versus a high-end brand. It doesnt translate into any substantial performance gains for the car frankly, as the engine is operating hundreds of degrees hotter than our shop, but the customer applies this experience to the car for some reason. we also use an interactive display for steering fluid to show customers a performance fluid, but nobody stops to consider most steering systems these days are hydraulically assisted.

jandrese 8y ago
Wow, this 0W20 feels so much more fluid than the 10W20! I've never considered that the tires in the waiting area were basically air "fresheners".
- crooked-v 8y ago
  That makes me think of the small but very real business in "new car smell" scented sprays.
ggg9990 8y ago
I love the smell of new tires but never thought that the marketing industry had figured that out and was exploiting it. LOL.

thomascgalvin 8y ago

> Imagine you want to buy something: You pick it, add it to your cart, and go through the entire check out process. In the final step, you see that the company has added an extra cost that was not mentioned on previous web pages. This drives me insane. I was recently about to purchase something from theMysterious Package Company, which is kind of a "story by mail" thing. They send you notes and letters and trinkets and such, which come together to tell a story. The product I was interested in was like $85, which is steep but I really like the property it's based on, and I figured that since these were physical items that had to be physically mailed, the cost was probably justified. Until I got to the last page and they threw in an additional $25 shipping fee. Fuck that noise. And they kept spamming me with "you forgot to finish checking out!" emails for the next week.

notatoad 8y ago
that's not a "dark pattern", there's always a shipping fee. it's how literally every e-commerce site works. have you ever used the internet before? if you decided to assume that shipping would be free despite no evidence to suggest it would be, that's on you.
- tracker1 8y ago
  In a lot of these cases the shipping itself is a large profit center. As actual shipping is usually lower.
  - notatoad 8y ago
    1. Is there any evidence to suggest that, it is this just general internet paranoia that's every company everywhere is a scam? 2. That doesn't contradict anything I said above.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
radley 8y ago
Sounds like it's really $100 w/ $10 shipping and then they A/B tested the difference to find the sweet spot for sign-ups.

radley 8y ago

Unfortunately, the author doesn't really address how dark patterns apply to design. It seems to be more about his discovering that dark patterns is a thing, and that other designers should be aware of it. When I worked at Zynga, I was very confused by their farming mechanics. Good UX meant users shouldn't need to wait hours to proceed with their game. But that annoying wait period created an itch that drove micro-transactions. Was that a dark pattern? No. There was a decent understanding between user and service how it worked. The distinction of dark pattern is when that understanding is broken by tricking the user into an unexpected obligation.

jgimenez 8y ago
Do you honestly think making a user pay because you introduced an artificial and annoying wait is in benefit of the user?

test6554 8y ago

I already have an email filter for the word "unsubscribe". it goes straight to my trash as well as "preferences" for people who think I should "manage my preferences"

Bromskloss 8y ago
Do you never voluntarily subscribe to anything?

superkuh 8y ago

The darkest of these patterns of simple and becoming ubiquitous: nothing displays unless you have javascript enabled, not even text, images, or other static content. NASA.gov is a prime example of this. So the user leaves JS on and then the site does a whole bunch of bullshit unrelated to the site service using JS. A slightly less, but more overtly, evil version of this is hiding everything behind an opaque div that is only cleared when JS on their domains is enabled. Reddit's new design is a prime example of this.

tracker1 8y ago

I usually rage quit when I see dark patterns. The only way to win is not to play... ... Global Thermonuclear War

antonkm 8y ago

> How many times have you been asked to put in your credit card information for a free trial or version of something? I just paid Pingdom $100 since my trial was done. Didn't need to confirm, the card was drawn since I added it on registration.