4 ms·

> Emacs is in a race, not against Vim, but against VS Code and Atom for which editor can be more easily customized. In the long run, it doesn't look good for Em

by zeveb 8y ago

> Emacs is in a race, not against Vim, but against VS Code and Atom for which editor can be more easily customized. In the long run, it doesn't look good for Emacs. Emacs is extensible in Lisp; VS Code & Atom are extensible in JavaScript. The point goes to emacs. Emacs has Magit, Org Mode, AucTeX, notmuch, gnus, ERC, emms, TRAMP, calc, calendar, Diary Mode — what do VS Code & Atom have? The point goes to emacs. Emacs runs in a GUI. Emacs runs in a terminal. Emacs runs on a machine halfway across the world on the other side of an SSH session. The point goes to emacs. Emacs is far from perfect, but it's far ahead of its competition.

oblio 8y ago
VS Code can be extended in Typescript: https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/extensions/overview#_writing-an-extension https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/extensions/overview#_writ... Philosophically Lisp may be superior, but I'm not sure it's so clear cut in real life. Regarding most of the features you present, a good chunk of them aren't editing features and another chunk are related to running in a limited environment (the terminal). So a big part of them aren't as strong selling points as you seem to think they are, since many people don't care about them.
- kqr 8y ago
  One of the frequently overlooked benefits of Lisp is that the culture around Lisp actively promotes software that is /supposed/ to be extended by its user and sort of grow into the user, rather than the user growing into it. There is also a huge difference between "building an extension" and "extending the actual code that is the running process." In Emacs, one can redefine one of its core functions at the push of a button, and suddenly all new calls will call your version of the function. If your redefined function has a breakpoint in it, you'll be able to debug-step into the core of the editor as it is running. Not sure how well TypeScript in VS Code works in that regard.
  - oblio 8y ago
    I've found that I prefer a very nice, coherent design by someone who spent a lot of time thinking about the problem in a holistic manner, than tinkering with stuff. And I do/did tinker a lot. IMO that's the best design: a solid, coherent design with clear extension points. Of course, I'm the Anti-Emacs by saying this :)
bitwize 8y ago
JavaScript is ubiquitous and acceptable for most of the same purposes as Lisp. It has a much bigger developer ecosystem. The point goes to VSCode. VSCode has much better integration with the languages and toolchains that people are actually using in 2018 -- Node, Go, Rust. The point goes to VSCode. VSCode has a modern UI that looks and works like the other applications people use every day. The point goes to VSCode. With a halfway decent GUI remoting protocol (e.g., RDP, PCoIP), you can run VSCode on machines halfway across the world too. So that one's a tie, I guess. Nobody except retrocomputing enthusiasts cares about terminals anymore; when kids today hear "terminal" they think of gnome-terminal (and some of them agitate to have it replaced with something that can present a richer experience than ANSI/VT100 can). The sun has largely set on Emacs's relevance. Objectively better tools have come along.
- kamaal 8y ago
  >>JavaScript is ubiquitous and acceptable for most of the same purposes as Lisp. The last time I checked on this very forum, Lisp people don't even consider scheme as a lisp. Only CL and Elisp came into their category of Lisp. >>modern UI that looks and works like the other applications people use every day The point about vi and emacs is not have that UI for the exact opposite reasons you state. Developer tools are not every day things like scissors or door handles. These are more like specialized tools, designed for one special purpose(Text editing). Also this whole idea of putting beginner friendliness ahead of all design goals leads to tools that are very easy for beginners to work with but do nothing more than that. The whole point about programming is to automate complex non trivial tasks. >>Nobody except retrocomputing enthusiasts cares about terminals anymore Wow! Just wow! Curious to know what you work on daily. I thought even in this era front end programmers had a fair bit of exposure to the command line. But if you are telling me only 'retrocomputing enthusiasts' care about the terminal, I have to wonder where these sort of programmers come from. >>With a halfway decent GUI remoting protocol (e.g., RDP, PCoIP), you can run VSCode on machines halfway across the world too. Actually no. But based on your thoughts about the terminal, I can see why you wrote that. >>The sun has largely set on Emacs's relevance. Emacs will never have the user share of something like Eclipse. But then eclipse won't have the life of Emacs either. These are tools aimed at different category of people.

by zeveb 8y ago

oblio 8y ago

VS Code can be extended in Typescript: https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/extensions/overview#_writing-an-extension https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/extensions/overview#_writ... Philosophically Lisp may be superior, but I'm not sure it's so clear cut in real life. Regarding most of the features you present, a good chunk of them aren't editing features and another chunk are related to running in a limited environment (the terminal). So a big part of them aren't as strong selling points as you seem to think they are, since many people don't care about them.

kqr 8y ago
One of the frequently overlooked benefits of Lisp is that the culture around Lisp actively promotes software that is /supposed/ to be extended by its user and sort of grow into the user, rather than the user growing into it. There is also a huge difference between "building an extension" and "extending the actual code that is the running process." In Emacs, one can redefine one of its core functions at the push of a button, and suddenly all new calls will call your version of the function. If your redefined function has a breakpoint in it, you'll be able to debug-step into the core of the editor as it is running. Not sure how well TypeScript in VS Code works in that regard.
- oblio 8y ago
  I've found that I prefer a very nice, coherent design by someone who spent a lot of time thinking about the problem in a holistic manner, than tinkering with stuff. And I do/did tinker a lot. IMO that's the best design: a solid, coherent design with clear extension points. Of course, I'm the Anti-Emacs by saying this :)

bitwize 8y ago

JavaScript is ubiquitous and acceptable for most of the same purposes as Lisp. It has a much bigger developer ecosystem. The point goes to VSCode. VSCode has much better integration with the languages and toolchains that people are actually using in 2018 -- Node, Go, Rust. The point goes to VSCode. VSCode has a modern UI that looks and works like the other applications people use every day. The point goes to VSCode. With a halfway decent GUI remoting protocol (e.g., RDP, PCoIP), you can run VSCode on machines halfway across the world too. So that one's a tie, I guess. Nobody except retrocomputing enthusiasts cares about terminals anymore; when kids today hear "terminal" they think of gnome-terminal (and some of them agitate to have it replaced with something that can present a richer experience than ANSI/VT100 can). The sun has largely set on Emacs's relevance. Objectively better tools have come along.

kamaal 8y ago
>>JavaScript is ubiquitous and acceptable for most of the same purposes as Lisp. The last time I checked on this very forum, Lisp people don't even consider scheme as a lisp. Only CL and Elisp came into their category of Lisp. >>modern UI that looks and works like the other applications people use every day The point about vi and emacs is not have that UI for the exact opposite reasons you state. Developer tools are not every day things like scissors or door handles. These are more like specialized tools, designed for one special purpose(Text editing). Also this whole idea of putting beginner friendliness ahead of all design goals leads to tools that are very easy for beginners to work with but do nothing more than that. The whole point about programming is to automate complex non trivial tasks. >>Nobody except retrocomputing enthusiasts cares about terminals anymore Wow! Just wow! Curious to know what you work on daily. I thought even in this era front end programmers had a fair bit of exposure to the command line. But if you are telling me only 'retrocomputing enthusiasts' care about the terminal, I have to wonder where these sort of programmers come from. >>With a halfway decent GUI remoting protocol (e.g., RDP, PCoIP), you can run VSCode on machines halfway across the world too. Actually no. But based on your thoughts about the terminal, I can see why you wrote that. >>The sun has largely set on Emacs's relevance. Emacs will never have the user share of something like Eclipse. But then eclipse won't have the life of Emacs either. These are tools aimed at different category of people.