5 ms·

San Francisco to Uber, Lyft: If your drivers aren’t employees, prove it

27 points by cribbles 8y ago

Const-me 8y ago
I think to prove that, Uber/Lyft need to allow drivers to negotiate prices with their passengers. Currently, Uber EULA only allows them to lower prices. Without their freedom to negotiate prices as they see fit, IMO drivers can’t be qualified as private contractors.
- jfim 8y ago
  How would that work in practice? Right now, in these apps, you can pick one of a few classes of cars, but if every driver has a different price, how do you allow the passenger to choose between dozens of drivers? The value added by these platforms is exactly that, you don't need to negotiate with individual drivers to get a fare to your destination.
  - Const-me 8y ago
    > how do you allow the passenger to choose between dozens of drivers? Why do you expect that’s going to be hard to implement? Actual private contractors (myself included) do that all the time. One straightforward method, a rider posts location + destination + price of the ride, accepts/declines offers from drivers based on price, vehicle model, reputation, personal preferences, etc. Another straightforward method, a passenger posts his location + destination, drivers offer price, a passenger accepts an offer. > The value added by these platforms is exactly that Not “exactly that”, that’s just one part of it. Examples of e-bay or stock markets shows that an intermediary connecting buyers with sellers, processing payments, maintaining reputation of both parties, and solving disputes, can still add huge value. > you don't need to negotiate with individual drivers to get a fare to your destination With sufficient support from the service, the negotiation part can probably be streamlined to only take a couple of clicks/swipes. Like preference to filter drivers/riders by price or distance, ability to save routes or destinations with price information allowing for 1-click repeated orders, other convenience features.
    - CodeWriter23 8y ago
      Having tapped “Accept” over 1500 times for Lyft, I can tell you the idea af doing such an analysis of a fare is highly impractical and dangerous. And illegal in the State of California as you are allowed only 1 tap into an app while the vehicle is moving. In cities like LA or SF, rideshares have to keep moving in a lot of scenarios because there simply is no place to pull over and stop in between dropping off one passenger and picking up the next.
      - dllthomas 8y ago
        You could let the drivers script it (providing some canned - and well explained - scripts)
      - Const-me 8y ago
        > is highly impractical and dangerous. And illegal in the State of California It’s technically possible, and not that hard, to implement a voice-based interface for that, using e.g. Bluetooth + car stereo. You setup your preferences while the vehicle is not moving to filter the offers you want to receive, by criteria like price/km, geography, min. total price. Then the software uses voice interface to read you the incoming offers, and listens to your “accept/decline” voice commands.
      - malandrew 8y ago
        Curious about the 1-tap law. Do you have a link to the actual statute here?
- prepend 8y ago
  I don’t think that’s a true condition. There are many situations where prices are not negotiated but are set by markets (easiest being eBay) and participants aren’t employees. I used to do a bit of contracting and I always set a price with my clients as part of the contract. That didn’t make me their employee. And didn’t make my employees and contractors my client’s employees.
  - Const-me 8y ago
    > many situations where prices are not negotiated but are set by markets (easiest being eBay) Market is not a third party like Uber. Market is a collective name for the body of the dealing parties. Specifically, prices on eBay are set by sellers for fixed price offers, and by buyers for auctions. > I used to do a bit of contracting and I always set a price with my clients as part of the contract. That didn’t make me their employee. Exactly. But if someone else would set your price with your clients, and your only options would be to agree to the price or quit the job, I would probably say you’re an employee, and that third party who set your prices is your employer or manager.
    - prepend 8y ago
      “Exactly. But if someone else would set your price with your clients, and your only options would be to agree to the price or quit the job, I would probably say you’re an employee” -This is actually precisely how about a third of my contracts worked. And reviews by my firm’s lawyers+theirs made sure it was legit. There’s a bunch of case law on this and tons of companies with this as their business mode (eg, FedEx). It will be interesting to see how this settles out though. I know FedEx has been through a lot of lawsuits and Microsoft famously lost and had a bunch of contractors reclassified as employees.
- malandrew 8y ago
  They do negotiate prices with their passengers, collectively, by deciding to drive or not. Just because it's not an explicit pricing method, doesn't mean there is no pricing method that the drivers control.
peatmoss 8y ago
I think if this sort of thing happens in a lot of places, we’re going to see how quickly that $62 billion valuation evaporates. I also predict that venture capitalists will eventually tire of subsidizing everyone’s rides much faster if Uber and Lyft drivers become bonafide employees (almost certainly the right thing considering the majority of drivers). Of course there’s always the possibility that they’ll be able to ride things out until autonomous fleets are real, but today’s combination of ride prices with tomorrow’s increased compensation for drivers won’t be sustainable for long. That said, I’ve been participating in a beta of another TNC that uses bonafide employees as drivers. The most interesting thing to me in that service is how much less scarily aggressive the drivers are. It’s almost as if paying them a wage makes them less stressed...
chalkandpaste 8y ago
> ... if your company is valued at $62 billion, you can afford to give your workers health care. What? Just because it's "valued" that way (that is, someone thinks it's worth that much) doesn't mean the entity has money in the bank or that such a change wouldn't negatively affect the companies inflow/outflow. Not that I support Uber or Lyft (I'm best described as ambivalent), or really have the facts for myself, but this was just so illogical I wonder how this guy can be the city's attorney.
- davidrm 8y ago
  you are completely right up to the last sentence, he knows what he’s saying/doing. he’s simply appealing to emotion hoping to influence the verdict. he most likely knows that this argument is bullshit, but it’s a good strategy.
prepend 8y ago
For those wondering about the “3 part rule,” this is a long standing IRS rule for employee (statutory or common) and had tons of guidance for companies and workers [0]. You can file an SS-8 [1] with the IRS for a determination. Basically boils down to behavioral, financial, and relationship factors. And you can tell that Uber and Lyft designed their business around this pretty carefully. I don’t see any google results about people having ss8s determined as employees so that likely says something. [0] https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-self-employed-or-employee https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... [1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf
CodeWriter23 8y ago
This IRS document has an assortment of tests to determine employee vs. contractor. I don’t see even 1 of these tests evaluating as “employee” in the case of Uber of Lyft. https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/understanding-employee-vs-contractor-designation https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/understanding-employee-vs-contr...

27 points by cribbles 8y ago

I think to prove that, Uber/Lyft need to allow drivers to negotiate prices with their passengers. Currently, Uber EULA only allows them to lower prices. Without their freedom to negotiate prices as they see fit, IMO drivers can’t be qualified as private contractors.

jfim 8y ago
How would that work in practice? Right now, in these apps, you can pick one of a few classes of cars, but if every driver has a different price, how do you allow the passenger to choose between dozens of drivers? The value added by these platforms is exactly that, you don't need to negotiate with individual drivers to get a fare to your destination.
- Const-me 8y ago
  > how do you allow the passenger to choose between dozens of drivers? Why do you expect that’s going to be hard to implement? Actual private contractors (myself included) do that all the time. One straightforward method, a rider posts location + destination + price of the ride, accepts/declines offers from drivers based on price, vehicle model, reputation, personal preferences, etc. Another straightforward method, a passenger posts his location + destination, drivers offer price, a passenger accepts an offer. > The value added by these platforms is exactly that Not “exactly that”, that’s just one part of it. Examples of e-bay or stock markets shows that an intermediary connecting buyers with sellers, processing payments, maintaining reputation of both parties, and solving disputes, can still add huge value. > you don't need to negotiate with individual drivers to get a fare to your destination With sufficient support from the service, the negotiation part can probably be streamlined to only take a couple of clicks/swipes. Like preference to filter drivers/riders by price or distance, ability to save routes or destinations with price information allowing for 1-click repeated orders, other convenience features.
  - CodeWriter23 8y ago
    Having tapped “Accept” over 1500 times for Lyft, I can tell you the idea af doing such an analysis of a fare is highly impractical and dangerous. And illegal in the State of California as you are allowed only 1 tap into an app while the vehicle is moving. In cities like LA or SF, rideshares have to keep moving in a lot of scenarios because there simply is no place to pull over and stop in between dropping off one passenger and picking up the next.
    - dllthomas 8y ago
      You could let the drivers script it (providing some canned - and well explained - scripts)
    - Const-me 8y ago
      > is highly impractical and dangerous. And illegal in the State of California It’s technically possible, and not that hard, to implement a voice-based interface for that, using e.g. Bluetooth + car stereo. You setup your preferences while the vehicle is not moving to filter the offers you want to receive, by criteria like price/km, geography, min. total price. Then the software uses voice interface to read you the incoming offers, and listens to your “accept/decline” voice commands.
    - malandrew 8y ago
      Curious about the 1-tap law. Do you have a link to the actual statute here?
prepend 8y ago
I don’t think that’s a true condition. There are many situations where prices are not negotiated but are set by markets (easiest being eBay) and participants aren’t employees. I used to do a bit of contracting and I always set a price with my clients as part of the contract. That didn’t make me their employee. And didn’t make my employees and contractors my client’s employees.
- Const-me 8y ago
  > many situations where prices are not negotiated but are set by markets (easiest being eBay) Market is not a third party like Uber. Market is a collective name for the body of the dealing parties. Specifically, prices on eBay are set by sellers for fixed price offers, and by buyers for auctions. > I used to do a bit of contracting and I always set a price with my clients as part of the contract. That didn’t make me their employee. Exactly. But if someone else would set your price with your clients, and your only options would be to agree to the price or quit the job, I would probably say you’re an employee, and that third party who set your prices is your employer or manager.
  - prepend 8y ago
    “Exactly. But if someone else would set your price with your clients, and your only options would be to agree to the price or quit the job, I would probably say you’re an employee” -This is actually precisely how about a third of my contracts worked. And reviews by my firm’s lawyers+theirs made sure it was legit. There’s a bunch of case law on this and tons of companies with this as their business mode (eg, FedEx). It will be interesting to see how this settles out though. I know FedEx has been through a lot of lawsuits and Microsoft famously lost and had a bunch of contractors reclassified as employees.
malandrew 8y ago
They do negotiate prices with their passengers, collectively, by deciding to drive or not. Just because it's not an explicit pricing method, doesn't mean there is no pricing method that the drivers control.

peatmoss 8y ago

I think if this sort of thing happens in a lot of places, we’re going to see how quickly that $62 billion valuation evaporates. I also predict that venture capitalists will eventually tire of subsidizing everyone’s rides much faster if Uber and Lyft drivers become bonafide employees (almost certainly the right thing considering the majority of drivers). Of course there’s always the possibility that they’ll be able to ride things out until autonomous fleets are real, but today’s combination of ride prices with tomorrow’s increased compensation for drivers won’t be sustainable for long. That said, I’ve been participating in a beta of another TNC that uses bonafide employees as drivers. The most interesting thing to me in that service is how much less scarily aggressive the drivers are. It’s almost as if paying them a wage makes them less stressed...

chalkandpaste 8y ago

> ... if your company is valued at $62 billion, you can afford to give your workers health care. What? Just because it's "valued" that way (that is, someone thinks it's worth that much) doesn't mean the entity has money in the bank or that such a change wouldn't negatively affect the companies inflow/outflow. Not that I support Uber or Lyft (I'm best described as ambivalent), or really have the facts for myself, but this was just so illogical I wonder how this guy can be the city's attorney.

davidrm 8y ago
you are completely right up to the last sentence, he knows what he’s saying/doing. he’s simply appealing to emotion hoping to influence the verdict. he most likely knows that this argument is bullshit, but it’s a good strategy.

prepend 8y ago

For those wondering about the “3 part rule,” this is a long standing IRS rule for employee (statutory or common) and had tons of guidance for companies and workers [0]. You can file an SS-8 [1] with the IRS for a determination. Basically boils down to behavioral, financial, and relationship factors. And you can tell that Uber and Lyft designed their business around this pretty carefully. I don’t see any google results about people having ss8s determined as employees so that likely says something. [0] https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-self-employed-or-employee https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... [1] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf

CodeWriter23 8y ago

This IRS document has an assortment of tests to determine employee vs. contractor. I don’t see even 1 of these tests evaluating as “employee” in the case of Uber of Lyft. https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/understanding-employee-vs-contractor-designation https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/understanding-employee-vs-contr...