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Yes. The comparisons of CO2 output aside, methane mining is increasingly being shown to be a major contributor to methane in the atmosphere. Being a far more po

Yes. The comparisons of CO2 output aside, methane mining is increasingly being shown to be a major contributor to methane in the atmosphere. Being a far more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, we need to minimise the production of methane, rather than increase it. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/oct/26/what-is-causing-the-rapid-rise-in-methane-emissions https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/oct/26/what-is-... As far as renewables go we have options including wind power which are already cheaper than natural gas plant: https://cleantechnica.com/2016/12/25/cost-of-solar-power-vs-cost-of-wind-power-coal-nuclear-natural-gas/ https://cleantechnica.com/2016/12/25/cost-of-solar-power-vs-... So both from economic and ecological viewpoints, natural gas is a bad idea.

mirimir 8y ago
But still better overall than coal, perhaps?
- manicdee 8y ago
  If you are switching away from coal, the economically sensible decision is renewables. The ecologically sensible decision is also renewables. Switching to gas is just trading one version of disaster for another. Instead of your world being razed by Godzilla you spend lots of money so it gets razed by Hedorah instead.
  - adrianN 8y ago
    But coal and renewables are very different, unless you also buy lots of storage.
    - manicdee 8y ago
      The issue has been done to death in academic circles. All we need to do is stop subsidising coal and nuclear, focus on investing in (companies rolling out) renewables, and let the propeller heads get the job done. Here's one recent take on the issue: https://reneweconomy.com.au/a-100-renewable-grid-isnt-just-feasible-its-already-happening-73505/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/a-100-renewable-grid-isnt-just-f... Note that last bit: as we shift to a transport fleet consisting of more and more EVs, the possibility of using storage to balance out demand vs supply becomes more likely, without huge investment in utility scale static batteries.
- Baeocystin 8y ago
  No perhaps about it. Natural gas is far better a fossil fuel to burn than coal per BTU. Still not ideal, of course. But it absolutely has its place as a transition fuel as we work to decarbonize our energy production.
  - manicdee 8y ago
    For the same money we can build solar and wind plant faster than gas, with the benefit of not using fossil fuels and increasing the rate of greenhouse gas emissions. Methane is not a transition fuel, it is simply a smoke and mirrors truck replacing some of the CO2 emissions of coal with methane emissions from well to furnace. Methane is far worse than carbon dioxide, we should not be following plans to increase methane emissions for a token reduction of CO2 emissions.
throwahey 8y ago
Consider me ignorant in this topic, but doesn't coal throughput beat out Solar or Wind? As far as I know you can always burn coal where as wind and solar are limited by external factors.
- __s 8y ago
  Renewables which have jitter in their throughput can be made consistent with batteries https://thinkprogress.org/colorado-wind-batteries-cheap-12e82b91a543 https://thinkprogress.org/colorado-wind-batteries-cheap-12e8...
  - manicdee 8y ago
    There are also pumped hydro and flywheels, amongst other options for storage with various optimum characteristics.
- Baeocystin 8y ago
  You don't deserve to be downvoted for your statement, as it is correct- coal plants can function 34/7, unlike most other green sources other than geothermal. Of course, gas plants can also function continuously, and for baseline, nothing beats nuclear. But burning gas for energy is far better than just releasing it unburned in to the air, or flaring it for no productive purpose. As we get more large-scale batteries online, the variable output of things like wind and solar will matter less, and they will be able to provide an ever-increasing percentage of our energy mix. This is well underway, but it is a huge task that will take a long time to complete.
- manicdee 8y ago
  A 100% renewable grid is possible by over-deploying renewable capacity, and providing time of production and time of use smoothing through storage. Solar is particularly good at addressing daily peaks because those peaks generally happen during the day. Wind is good at relatively steady production around the clock because there is almost always wind blowing somewhere. Coal is pretty terrible because it takes hours to react to changes in demand. This is why we have the term “baseload”: the rest of the industry must be highly dispachable to work around the high thermal mass (and resultant low responsiveness) of coal plants. In addition coal plant tends to be large monolithic production, so the loss of one plant represents a significant proportion of supply. Coal is thus a net hazard to power reliability.

mirimir 8y ago

But still better overall than coal, perhaps?

manicdee 8y ago
If you are switching away from coal, the economically sensible decision is renewables. The ecologically sensible decision is also renewables. Switching to gas is just trading one version of disaster for another. Instead of your world being razed by Godzilla you spend lots of money so it gets razed by Hedorah instead.
- adrianN 8y ago
  But coal and renewables are very different, unless you also buy lots of storage.
  - manicdee 8y ago
    The issue has been done to death in academic circles. All we need to do is stop subsidising coal and nuclear, focus on investing in (companies rolling out) renewables, and let the propeller heads get the job done. Here's one recent take on the issue: https://reneweconomy.com.au/a-100-renewable-grid-isnt-just-feasible-its-already-happening-73505/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/a-100-renewable-grid-isnt-just-f... Note that last bit: as we shift to a transport fleet consisting of more and more EVs, the possibility of using storage to balance out demand vs supply becomes more likely, without huge investment in utility scale static batteries.
Baeocystin 8y ago
No perhaps about it. Natural gas is far better a fossil fuel to burn than coal per BTU. Still not ideal, of course. But it absolutely has its place as a transition fuel as we work to decarbonize our energy production.
- manicdee 8y ago
  For the same money we can build solar and wind plant faster than gas, with the benefit of not using fossil fuels and increasing the rate of greenhouse gas emissions. Methane is not a transition fuel, it is simply a smoke and mirrors truck replacing some of the CO2 emissions of coal with methane emissions from well to furnace. Methane is far worse than carbon dioxide, we should not be following plans to increase methane emissions for a token reduction of CO2 emissions.

throwahey 8y ago

Consider me ignorant in this topic, but doesn't coal throughput beat out Solar or Wind? As far as I know you can always burn coal where as wind and solar are limited by external factors.

__s 8y ago
Renewables which have jitter in their throughput can be made consistent with batteries https://thinkprogress.org/colorado-wind-batteries-cheap-12e82b91a543 https://thinkprogress.org/colorado-wind-batteries-cheap-12e8...
- manicdee 8y ago
  There are also pumped hydro and flywheels, amongst other options for storage with various optimum characteristics.
Baeocystin 8y ago
You don't deserve to be downvoted for your statement, as it is correct- coal plants can function 34/7, unlike most other green sources other than geothermal. Of course, gas plants can also function continuously, and for baseline, nothing beats nuclear. But burning gas for energy is far better than just releasing it unburned in to the air, or flaring it for no productive purpose. As we get more large-scale batteries online, the variable output of things like wind and solar will matter less, and they will be able to provide an ever-increasing percentage of our energy mix. This is well underway, but it is a huge task that will take a long time to complete.
manicdee 8y ago
A 100% renewable grid is possible by over-deploying renewable capacity, and providing time of production and time of use smoothing through storage. Solar is particularly good at addressing daily peaks because those peaks generally happen during the day. Wind is good at relatively steady production around the clock because there is almost always wind blowing somewhere. Coal is pretty terrible because it takes hours to react to changes in demand. This is why we have the term “baseload”: the rest of the industry must be highly dispachable to work around the high thermal mass (and resultant low responsiveness) of coal plants. In addition coal plant tends to be large monolithic production, so the loss of one plant represents a significant proportion of supply. Coal is thus a net hazard to power reliability.