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It's both. Inherently bad and bad actors promoting it in bad faith. PUA in a nutshell is lying to women, degrading them etc in a way to manipulate someone int

It's both. Inherently bad and bad actors promoting it in bad faith. PUA in a nutshell is lying to women, degrading them etc in a way to manipulate someone into a relationship. It is toxic to the core.

dvtrn 8y ago
Interesting. This has me wondering about something: I'm no incel or whatever, I'm also not particularly focused on a relationship (or sex, although there is a non-committed person in my life I see with regularity for both the casual romp and coffee dates to just sit and enjoy company), in married to the degree but I'm curious what you think: is there a difference between enjoying the art of playful flirting/courting and PUA? I'm someone who enjoys flirting and playful banter but have learned to have tempered expectations. Part of me thinks that at the core, it's ALL an act of mind games to convince another person why you're worth their time (or conversely showing them why you're worth theirs) and there's going to be some level of duplicity involved. Be it "oh yeah I love sushi" (when you're really just passive about it) or "I drive a fancy car I can give you all the things" (when you're really leasing a slightly less than luxury sedan). Just curious what your thoughts are
- chillwaves 8y ago
  There is a way to do this without being toxic. If you are harming the other person, making them feel less so you feel more powerful, then it is a problem. I am able to flirt with a woman without making them feel less so I don't know how to answer your question beyond that.
  - dvtrn 8y ago
    While I can certainly appreciate the response there, it isn't quite what I'm asking: is there a difference between enjoying the art of playful flirting/courting and PUA? Not asking if it's merely possible to court/flirt without being toxic (because of course there is, absolutely, I agree). I pose the question the way I have because I have yet to be wholly convinced that PUA is inherently toxic, and we aren't allowing the manifestation of bad actors to paint a view of enjoying the transactional nature of flirting to the point of finding ways to make it more engaging than simply engaging in small-talk/banter/exchanging statements back and forth at each other about life, the universe and etcetera-and subsequently-wanting to find ways of improving how you go about courting relationships. tl;dr - "hate the player, not the game", etc.
- maroonblazer 8y ago
  > Part of me thinks that at the core, it's ALL an act of mind games to convince another person why you're worth their time (or conversely showing them why you're worth theirs) and there's going to be some level of duplicity involved. I tried that for the longest time and it was exhausting and unfruitful. When I relented and simply focused on meeting as many women as I could - and having the patience for a natural attraction to occur - it made a big difference. It sounds a bit Zen but when I stopped trying to "score" it seemed much easier to meet plenty of interesting women.

dvtrn 8y ago

Interesting. This has me wondering about something: I'm no incel or whatever, I'm also not particularly focused on a relationship (or sex, although there is a non-committed person in my life I see with regularity for both the casual romp and coffee dates to just sit and enjoy company), in married to the degree but I'm curious what you think: is there a difference between enjoying the art of playful flirting/courting and PUA? I'm someone who enjoys flirting and playful banter but have learned to have tempered expectations. Part of me thinks that at the core, it's ALL an act of mind games to convince another person why you're worth their time (or conversely showing them why you're worth theirs) and there's going to be some level of duplicity involved. Be it "oh yeah I love sushi" (when you're really just passive about it) or "I drive a fancy car I can give you all the things" (when you're really leasing a slightly less than luxury sedan). Just curious what your thoughts are

chillwaves 8y ago
There is a way to do this without being toxic. If you are harming the other person, making them feel less so you feel more powerful, then it is a problem. I am able to flirt with a woman without making them feel less so I don't know how to answer your question beyond that.
- dvtrn 8y ago
  While I can certainly appreciate the response there, it isn't quite what I'm asking: is there a difference between enjoying the art of playful flirting/courting and PUA? Not asking if it's merely possible to court/flirt without being toxic (because of course there is, absolutely, I agree). I pose the question the way I have because I have yet to be wholly convinced that PUA is inherently toxic, and we aren't allowing the manifestation of bad actors to paint a view of enjoying the transactional nature of flirting to the point of finding ways to make it more engaging than simply engaging in small-talk/banter/exchanging statements back and forth at each other about life, the universe and etcetera-and subsequently-wanting to find ways of improving how you go about courting relationships. tl;dr - "hate the player, not the game", etc.
maroonblazer 8y ago
> Part of me thinks that at the core, it's ALL an act of mind games to convince another person why you're worth their time (or conversely showing them why you're worth theirs) and there's going to be some level of duplicity involved. I tried that for the longest time and it was exhausting and unfruitful. When I relented and simply focused on meeting as many women as I could - and having the patience for a natural attraction to occur - it made a big difference. It sounds a bit Zen but when I stopped trying to "score" it seemed much easier to meet plenty of interesting women.