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“virtue signaling” Ew please refrain from echoing alt-right invented language here.

by debt 8y ago

dvtrn 8y ago
The "alt-right" absolutely did not invent the phrase 'virtue signaling', though one could probably make a (shaky) argument that they're guilty of deploying it most uncharitably. I don't think this is the place for that discussion though.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  I also don't think this is the place for trying to shut down the conversation based on who is associated with a word or phrase used. If there's something wrong with it's use in this context, "debt" should make that case, rather than trying to police the language.
  - dvtrn 8y ago
    Agreed. I was struggling to find a way to state this as well but choose to shut up when words eluded me. Is the phrase "virtue signaling" sometimes deployed by people with shitty intent? Yes. That doesn't mean the phrase has no value at all and I think in the context used its usage above was perfectly apt. If one thinks otherwise they ought to articulate a counterpoint instead of expecting all discussion on the point to stop because of their own personal hangups with bad actors. Something something nuanced political debate is dead
    - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
      Nuanced political debate may not be dead, but it is certainly being shot at. This is the second time today I've seen someone trying to end a conversation on HN because they labeled a participant as "alt-right". (There was more justification in the other case - the participant may well have been an active alt-right leader - but someone wanted them to be shunned for their off-HN identity, not for what they said here. It's disturbing. Some people (and from what I'm seeing, it's people on the left) want to simply silence other people (on the right) rather than actually answer them. I guess it's less work that way, and maybe more satisfying as well. It's less productive, though - you miss a chance to convince the audience, and you miss a chance to persuade your opponent. You gain the chance to make the audience make sure they never say the "taboo" words in the future, though... but that's more of a totalitarian approach than a reasonable tactic for a free people.
      - debt 8y ago
        I do want to shut it down at the first scent of a malformed, intellectually stunted alt-right-prescribed viewpoint as it’s tiresome to constantly need to successfully shoot down the barrage of canned Shapiro/Peterson/Bannon-esque rebuttals to every left-leaning viewpoint or policy. Alt-right viewpoints are simply noise at this point akin to listening to the distant echoes of thousands of YouTube videos simultaneously. So when I see the tired phrase “virtue signaling” I think “uh oh here we go...” Sorry if I’m triggered by it.
        dvtrn 8y ago
        One does not need to apologize for having raw nerves in this political climate. That's understandable. It's hair trigger word association and bad faith presumptions of complicity with "the other" for reasons as shallow as expressing dissent without real substance or political vigor that some seem to be growing fatigued with. I won't sit here and promulgate respectability politics just say that when one ignores their own political baggage and hubris it passively signals to everyone watching it's fair game for them to do so as well. And the noise just gets louder as a result.
      - dvtrn 8y ago
        Nodding in agreement. Though I feel lately there's segments of all political stripes that don't care about making good points and just want to win, and be seen winning. Reminds me of a Hunter S Thompson quote about a high water line of political fervor, where people thought they were winning, that they were right simply because they had done nothing more than show people how angry they could be.

“virtue signaling” Ew please refrain from echoing alt-right invented language here.

by debt 8y ago

“virtue signaling” Ew please refrain from echoing alt-right invented language here.

The "alt-right" absolutely did not invent the phrase 'virtue signaling', though one could probably make a (shaky) argument that they're guilty of deploying it most uncharitably. I don't think this is the place for that discussion though.

AnimalMuppet 8y ago
I also don't think this is the place for trying to shut down the conversation based on who is associated with a word or phrase used. If there's something wrong with it's use in this context, "debt" should make that case, rather than trying to police the language.
- dvtrn 8y ago
  Agreed. I was struggling to find a way to state this as well but choose to shut up when words eluded me. Is the phrase "virtue signaling" sometimes deployed by people with shitty intent? Yes. That doesn't mean the phrase has no value at all and I think in the context used its usage above was perfectly apt. If one thinks otherwise they ought to articulate a counterpoint instead of expecting all discussion on the point to stop because of their own personal hangups with bad actors. Something something nuanced political debate is dead
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    Nuanced political debate may not be dead, but it is certainly being shot at. This is the second time today I've seen someone trying to end a conversation on HN because they labeled a participant as "alt-right". (There was more justification in the other case - the participant may well have been an active alt-right leader - but someone wanted them to be shunned for their off-HN identity, not for what they said here. It's disturbing. Some people (and from what I'm seeing, it's people on the left) want to simply silence other people (on the right) rather than actually answer them. I guess it's less work that way, and maybe more satisfying as well. It's less productive, though - you miss a chance to convince the audience, and you miss a chance to persuade your opponent. You gain the chance to make the audience make sure they never say the "taboo" words in the future, though... but that's more of a totalitarian approach than a reasonable tactic for a free people.
    - debt 8y ago
      I do want to shut it down at the first scent of a malformed, intellectually stunted alt-right-prescribed viewpoint as it’s tiresome to constantly need to successfully shoot down the barrage of canned Shapiro/Peterson/Bannon-esque rebuttals to every left-leaning viewpoint or policy. Alt-right viewpoints are simply noise at this point akin to listening to the distant echoes of thousands of YouTube videos simultaneously. So when I see the tired phrase “virtue signaling” I think “uh oh here we go...” Sorry if I’m triggered by it.
      - dvtrn 8y ago
        One does not need to apologize for having raw nerves in this political climate. That's understandable. It's hair trigger word association and bad faith presumptions of complicity with "the other" for reasons as shallow as expressing dissent without real substance or political vigor that some seem to be growing fatigued with. I won't sit here and promulgate respectability politics just say that when one ignores their own political baggage and hubris it passively signals to everyone watching it's fair game for them to do so as well. And the noise just gets louder as a result.
    - dvtrn 8y ago
      Nodding in agreement. Though I feel lately there's segments of all political stripes that don't care about making good points and just want to win, and be seen winning. Reminds me of a Hunter S Thompson quote about a high water line of political fervor, where people thought they were winning, that they were right simply because they had done nothing more than show people how angry they could be.