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Okay, I understand your argument but that's not at all how that works. Framing poverty in absolute numbers creates an impossible slope to climb. Sure, it would

Okay, I understand your argument but that's not at all how that works. Framing poverty in absolute numbers creates an impossible slope to climb. Sure, it would be fantastic if we could reliably shoot for reducing the amount of poverty in absolute terms and that is (sort of) the goal anyway. HOWEVER, absolute terms are meaningless for measuring population effects. Also exponential growth is keeping poverty down. Growth creates mobility because without growth economics becomes a zero sum game and NOBODY wants to live in that environment. You think the 70s were violent, well. . . . As for fertility rates, that's also not how that works. Lower fertility rates mean fewer working age people to provide a tax base. That's why countries who have low birthrates are all encouraging immigration. Japan, for instance, with its low birthrate now has more immigrants than it has ever taken on. In any case I think we have an epistemological disagreement and I don't expect to convince you, just to explain my thinking. Thanks for taking the time to explain your argument, and even though I disagree I appreciate it.

newnewpdro 8y ago
Much of what you point out as benefits of growth aren't necessarily the way it has to be. We have a deeply rooted system built entirely around a growth model, and growth will inevitably have to cease since it's inherently unsustainable. Everything will need to adapt to that situation, and much of your assumptions will necessarily no longer be true for the nation to function. I don't know what that will look like, but we must adapt to a world without growth, the sooner the better, for everyone in the long-term. I already stated that it's impossible to keep up with the population growth. This is precisely why I feel it's important to clearly state the figures in terms that really reflect what's seen by individuals walking through our city streets. I don't have the impression that the average person actually groks this coupling, and it's articles like those portraying such things in per capita figures which helps reinforce the illusion things are improving while they're actually deteriorating.
- tech4all 8y ago
  This is, perhaps, one of the most civilized and enlightened on-line discussions I have ever witnessed. Newnewpdro and weeksie I commend you both.

newnewpdro 8y ago

Much of what you point out as benefits of growth aren't necessarily the way it has to be. We have a deeply rooted system built entirely around a growth model, and growth will inevitably have to cease since it's inherently unsustainable. Everything will need to adapt to that situation, and much of your assumptions will necessarily no longer be true for the nation to function. I don't know what that will look like, but we must adapt to a world without growth, the sooner the better, for everyone in the long-term. I already stated that it's impossible to keep up with the population growth. This is precisely why I feel it's important to clearly state the figures in terms that really reflect what's seen by individuals walking through our city streets. I don't have the impression that the average person actually groks this coupling, and it's articles like those portraying such things in per capita figures which helps reinforce the illusion things are improving while they're actually deteriorating.

tech4all 8y ago
This is, perhaps, one of the most civilized and enlightened on-line discussions I have ever witnessed. Newnewpdro and weeksie I commend you both.