7 ms·

Disclaimer: I'm vegan I really don't know how to help attitudes move towards a plant based life-style. I don't bother bringing it up because the second the top

by z_open 8y ago

Disclaimer: I'm vegan I really don't know how to help attitudes move towards a plant based life-style. I don't bother bringing it up because the second the topic is introduced, people feel attacked and that I'm just doing it to feel superior. Amusingly enough, it's usually omnivores that bring up that topic but still are obviously uneasy about the whole thing.

istorical 8y ago
I think the key to vegan food growth is making vegan food so delicious and cheap that people start deciding to go get dinner at By Chloe instead of Five Guys (https://www.eater.com/2018/4/19/17243780/by-chloe-vegan-chain-guac-burger https://www.eater.com/2018/4/19/17243780/by-chloe-vegan-chai...). I wonder how much vegan restaurants can undercut omni restaurants due to the lower costs of vegetables compared to meats. Source: anecdata from an omnivore that recently decided to try vegan food and found that there are actually some pretty delicious deals to be found. If I could get a really great vegan meal for $6-8 rather than the $9-13 I normally pay in NYC I would probably start replacing a lot of my eating out with it.
- blacksmith_tb 8y ago
  I would think the key would be removing the subsidies to the livestock industry. If a burger at Five Guys cost $20, there'd be a lot more vegans...
  - hunter23 8y ago
    The subsidies wouldn't create more vegans in my view but it would reduce overall meat consumption. If you look at countries with higher meat costs (relative to income) you see that most have lower per capita meat consumption but they don't necessarily have higher incidence of vegans.
  - trevyn 8y ago
    It wouldn’t cost $20.
- pm90 8y ago
  It should very much be possible. Anecdotally, India has huge number of people who don't eat meat and the vegetarian food is pretty delicious. But perhaps its just because I grew up eating that food. The problem is probably that innovation in non-meat based food hasn't happened very much in the US. But I do see that changing with Amy's kitchen and all the vegan/veggie restaurants that are springing up. My personal feeling is that lab grown meat and meat substitutes are probably the best way to get around this rather than moralizing about it, which never works. Disclaimer: I'm definitely a meat lover, but do try to eat less meat whenever I can.
- archagon 8y ago
  I recently tried the Beyond Burger at Veggie Grill and was downright shocked by how good it tasted. More of that and people might be a lot happier to go vegan!
detcader 8y ago
Thinking about how to affect cultural change on an person-to-person basis is good but there are much better ways. Journalists like Glenn Greenwald and activists willing to risk arrest to take undercover videos (a profoundly American pair of sorts of people) should continue exposing cruelty and torture of animals inside slaughterhouses...
- ta5544667722 8y ago
  Recently in Australia we had a bit of an eye-opener [1] (animal cruelty in it) as to the conditions the sheep etc are treated in for our 1B+ industry we're apparently the leaders in [2]. The first link is 60 Minutes so it'll be all drama and deep bells ringing, but the images and treatment are shocking. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXZkfdLU8O8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXZkfdLU8O8 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArgrLXE1ZG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArgrLXE1ZG8
trevyn 8y ago
Root-cause it: Why do you believe a plant-based lifestyle is desirable? Is it possible the assumptions behind this belief are incorrect?
- passiveincomelg 8y ago
  Are the numbers in the article assumptions?
  - trevyn 8y ago
    Seems like there’s an underlying assumption that “land use” is something to optimize for, which strikes me as odd. Earth is huge. Even if that was valid, a second-order effect is to increase carrying capacity and increase the rate of population growth.
    - rohit2412 8y ago
      You aren't growing food in deserts, Arctic tundra and don't want to cut down rainforests. Even now there are people who can't afford food, the more efficiently farming is done, the cheaper food will be for them.
    - passiveincomelg 8y ago
      Not all land is the same. But I don't think it's about land use. It's about water usage, soil and water contamination, deforestation, greenhouse gas emission and the inefficient conversion of plant calories to animal calories. Oh and of course the tiny little detail that applying the efficiency optimizer that is capitalism results in atrocious treatment of sentient beings (pardon the pathos, feel free to substitute with emotionless words if you can think of any).
      - tagh 8y ago
        Your vitriol undermines your message.
        8y ago
hunter23 8y ago
Why don't you try me? I am an omnivore who is engaged to a vegetarian. My meat consumption has dropped since we have started dating, but I don't feel a strong desire to turn vegetarian. I love meat, fish, eggs, and milk, and while I have tried all the vegan based alternatives, they are not good enough for me. I try to limit my intake in these areas, but I don't see why I should eliminate them completely. I suppose that when lab made meat or vegan meat like impossible burger become better tasting to me I would make the switch, but until then I don't see a strong drive to completely eliminate my consumption of meat. I think there are nutritional benefits of meat, milk, and fish and I like the taste so my viewpoint is to moderate intake and be thoughtful in what I consume. But I'm always open to change my viewpoint so happy to hear your philosophy.
- yesenadam 8y ago
  Well, some people have a "philosophy" that humans aren't the only life-form in the universe whose lives mean something, have value. Reading your post is for me a little like someone talking about slavery, how they like it, it has benefits, they don't feel a strong desire to stop, they've tried to cut down but don't see why they should stop completely, etc. It's kind of obscene. Or at best, like there's a huge elephant in the room. It's not all about you. I was brought up on a farm with cows we ate, later I ate hamburgers.. Then in my 20s it dawned on me that treating animals as they they're nothing but things for humans to eat only seemed ethically OK because it was the norm in my culture, (encouraged by a lot of now-super-gruesome-seeming TV ads on e.g. how delicious lambs are) and..because I'm human. A lot like how racism seemed OK if you're white, slavery if you're not a slave etc. It's a matter of widening your field of ethical concern from the arbitrary "Animals of my species, uh plus cats and dogs" line. Otherwise you will sound like, say, a white-supremacist racist talking as if only white people matter, all others have no value, mean nothing except as they can serve whites. (I have to use these analogies to try to get you to hear what meat-eater arguments sound like to me)
  - pluto9 8y ago
    You were just complaining in another comment about vegans being painted as unreasonable and proselytizing, and then immediately posted this comment comparing non-vegans to slave owners. I can't tell if you're trolling or if you honestly can't see what's wrong with this picture.
yesenadam 8y ago
I know, right? Just the other day on here I read, mid-discussion of an unrelated subject, someone saying "like vegans" as a random example of an unreasonable, aggressive, troublesome, proselytizing group. I wanted to comment but couldn't think of anything....suitable to say. (vegan here) I don't know if they didn't think vegans would read it, or not care, or it didn't occur to them.
liftdd 8y ago
I am extremely interested in veganism but currently I purchase free-range eggs and grass-fed beef from a neighbor. I have Celiac disease and I'm lactose intolerant so the only dairy I consume is butter. I cook with butter/tallow/bacon fat but eat 6+lbs of grass-fed beef a week. I hunt deer/elk and fish salmon/bass, as well. I use the whole animal (organs) and hunting/free-range/grass-fed is the most ethical way I can think of consuming animals while respecting the earth. I absolutely hate modern agriculture and want to buy land where I don't touch a thing and allow ruminants to live as freely as they want, then hunt what I need. What do you see wrong with my lifestyle? I've looked into a plant-based diet but I still have a lot to learn though! I'm definitely open to it.

by z_open 8y ago

istorical 8y ago

I think the key to vegan food growth is making vegan food so delicious and cheap that people start deciding to go get dinner at By Chloe instead of Five Guys (https://www.eater.com/2018/4/19/17243780/by-chloe-vegan-chain-guac-burger https://www.eater.com/2018/4/19/17243780/by-chloe-vegan-chai...). I wonder how much vegan restaurants can undercut omni restaurants due to the lower costs of vegetables compared to meats. Source: anecdata from an omnivore that recently decided to try vegan food and found that there are actually some pretty delicious deals to be found. If I could get a really great vegan meal for $6-8 rather than the $9-13 I normally pay in NYC I would probably start replacing a lot of my eating out with it.

blacksmith_tb 8y ago
I would think the key would be removing the subsidies to the livestock industry. If a burger at Five Guys cost $20, there'd be a lot more vegans...
- hunter23 8y ago
  The subsidies wouldn't create more vegans in my view but it would reduce overall meat consumption. If you look at countries with higher meat costs (relative to income) you see that most have lower per capita meat consumption but they don't necessarily have higher incidence of vegans.
- trevyn 8y ago
  It wouldn’t cost $20.
pm90 8y ago
It should very much be possible. Anecdotally, India has huge number of people who don't eat meat and the vegetarian food is pretty delicious. But perhaps its just because I grew up eating that food. The problem is probably that innovation in non-meat based food hasn't happened very much in the US. But I do see that changing with Amy's kitchen and all the vegan/veggie restaurants that are springing up. My personal feeling is that lab grown meat and meat substitutes are probably the best way to get around this rather than moralizing about it, which never works. Disclaimer: I'm definitely a meat lover, but do try to eat less meat whenever I can.
archagon 8y ago
I recently tried the Beyond Burger at Veggie Grill and was downright shocked by how good it tasted. More of that and people might be a lot happier to go vegan!

detcader 8y ago

Thinking about how to affect cultural change on an person-to-person basis is good but there are much better ways. Journalists like Glenn Greenwald and activists willing to risk arrest to take undercover videos (a profoundly American pair of sorts of people) should continue exposing cruelty and torture of animals inside slaughterhouses...

ta5544667722 8y ago
Recently in Australia we had a bit of an eye-opener [1] (animal cruelty in it) as to the conditions the sheep etc are treated in for our 1B+ industry we're apparently the leaders in [2]. The first link is 60 Minutes so it'll be all drama and deep bells ringing, but the images and treatment are shocking. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXZkfdLU8O8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXZkfdLU8O8 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArgrLXE1ZG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArgrLXE1ZG8

trevyn 8y ago

Root-cause it: Why do you believe a plant-based lifestyle is desirable? Is it possible the assumptions behind this belief are incorrect?

passiveincomelg 8y ago
Are the numbers in the article assumptions?
- trevyn 8y ago
  Seems like there’s an underlying assumption that “land use” is something to optimize for, which strikes me as odd. Earth is huge. Even if that was valid, a second-order effect is to increase carrying capacity and increase the rate of population growth.
  - rohit2412 8y ago
    You aren't growing food in deserts, Arctic tundra and don't want to cut down rainforests. Even now there are people who can't afford food, the more efficiently farming is done, the cheaper food will be for them.
  - passiveincomelg 8y ago
    Not all land is the same. But I don't think it's about land use. It's about water usage, soil and water contamination, deforestation, greenhouse gas emission and the inefficient conversion of plant calories to animal calories. Oh and of course the tiny little detail that applying the efficiency optimizer that is capitalism results in atrocious treatment of sentient beings (pardon the pathos, feel free to substitute with emotionless words if you can think of any).
    - tagh 8y ago
      Your vitriol undermines your message.
      - 8y ago

hunter23 8y ago

Why don't you try me? I am an omnivore who is engaged to a vegetarian. My meat consumption has dropped since we have started dating, but I don't feel a strong desire to turn vegetarian. I love meat, fish, eggs, and milk, and while I have tried all the vegan based alternatives, they are not good enough for me. I try to limit my intake in these areas, but I don't see why I should eliminate them completely. I suppose that when lab made meat or vegan meat like impossible burger become better tasting to me I would make the switch, but until then I don't see a strong drive to completely eliminate my consumption of meat. I think there are nutritional benefits of meat, milk, and fish and I like the taste so my viewpoint is to moderate intake and be thoughtful in what I consume. But I'm always open to change my viewpoint so happy to hear your philosophy.

yesenadam 8y ago
Well, some people have a "philosophy" that humans aren't the only life-form in the universe whose lives mean something, have value. Reading your post is for me a little like someone talking about slavery, how they like it, it has benefits, they don't feel a strong desire to stop, they've tried to cut down but don't see why they should stop completely, etc. It's kind of obscene. Or at best, like there's a huge elephant in the room. It's not all about you. I was brought up on a farm with cows we ate, later I ate hamburgers.. Then in my 20s it dawned on me that treating animals as they they're nothing but things for humans to eat only seemed ethically OK because it was the norm in my culture, (encouraged by a lot of now-super-gruesome-seeming TV ads on e.g. how delicious lambs are) and..because I'm human. A lot like how racism seemed OK if you're white, slavery if you're not a slave etc. It's a matter of widening your field of ethical concern from the arbitrary "Animals of my species, uh plus cats and dogs" line. Otherwise you will sound like, say, a white-supremacist racist talking as if only white people matter, all others have no value, mean nothing except as they can serve whites. (I have to use these analogies to try to get you to hear what meat-eater arguments sound like to me)
- pluto9 8y ago
  You were just complaining in another comment about vegans being painted as unreasonable and proselytizing, and then immediately posted this comment comparing non-vegans to slave owners. I can't tell if you're trolling or if you honestly can't see what's wrong with this picture.

yesenadam 8y ago

I know, right? Just the other day on here I read, mid-discussion of an unrelated subject, someone saying "like vegans" as a random example of an unreasonable, aggressive, troublesome, proselytizing group. I wanted to comment but couldn't think of anything....suitable to say. (vegan here) I don't know if they didn't think vegans would read it, or not care, or it didn't occur to them.

liftdd 8y ago

I am extremely interested in veganism but currently I purchase free-range eggs and grass-fed beef from a neighbor. I have Celiac disease and I'm lactose intolerant so the only dairy I consume is butter. I cook with butter/tallow/bacon fat but eat 6+lbs of grass-fed beef a week. I hunt deer/elk and fish salmon/bass, as well. I use the whole animal (organs) and hunting/free-range/grass-fed is the most ethical way I can think of consuming animals while respecting the earth. I absolutely hate modern agriculture and want to buy land where I don't touch a thing and allow ruminants to live as freely as they want, then hunt what I need. What do you see wrong with my lifestyle? I've looked into a plant-based diet but I still have a lot to learn though! I'm definitely open to it.