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All this points to me is the risks of owning a phone whose only way to add apps is to go through one company's own discretion. Unlike in Android where you can e
by anderber 8y ago
All this points to me is the risks of owning a phone whose only way to add apps is to go through one company's own discretion. Unlike in Android where you can easily install apps from other app stores or just download the file.
- jonknee 8y agoInstalling apps outside an app store also introduces other risks, it's not exactly one better than the other. Personally I'd love to sideload apps, but seeing how big of a mess that was on desktops leads me to believe most users are better served by a gatekeeper.
- kbenson 8y ago> most users are better served by a gatekeeper. I think the point is that Android's marketplace functions as a gatekeeper. Apple's marketplace functions as a prison warden. The difference is whether you on the inside are allowed to make exceptions for who can come through, or even pass through yourself. If you have no control, what you've been told is a protective wall is actually restraining wall. That said, as to your original point, perhaps some people do need their devices imprisoned for the benefit of the rest of us. I'm not sure I believe that, but I will readily admit that a vast number of people are either unable or unwilling to detect and rectify the problem of their digital devices being hacked, and that ends up affecting us all.
- codedokode 8y agoWhile Android allows to install apps from anywhere, it doesn't allow them to have the same privileges that Google's apps have and doesn't allow them to manage iptables for example.
- y_molodtsov 8y agoAnd then people install pirated .apk making iOS the most profitable mobile platform for developers as they prefer to focus on iOS, especially regarding expensive apps.
- kbenson 8y agoDo you actually know of anyone that installs pirated APK files? Do you have actual statistics as to how prevalent it is? I'm sure it happens, but if you're going to use it as the reason "iOS is the most profitable platform for developers" you're going to need to more evidence than an unsupported assertion such as that.
- jstanley 8y agoI will never support an oppressor. People should be free of gatekeepers, even if they're worse at looking after themselves than the gatekeepers are, because being a gatekeeper is just far too much of a moral hazard.
- Qwertie 8y agoI think the best option is picking your own gatekeeper. fdroid and redhat are the gatekeepers of my system but if they turn bad I can choose better ones.
- anderber 8y agoI should have specified, I meant risk to freedom/censorship.
- jMyles 8y ago> how big of a mess that was on desktops Wait, what? The desktop experience is wonderful in this regard - choose any number of app stores if you want, or don't, if you don't want. I've never, ever thought of this as a problem.
- jonknee 8y agoThe millions of desktops riddled with adware and viruses running to this day is pretty good evidence that most people cannot effectively manage software on a desktop OS. Remember when you'd find four different toolbars on IE that your friend/family/neighbor had no idea how they got? If you're on this site you are not most people. But, if it wasn't for the rules of Apple and Google what kind of things do you think Candy Crush would install on your elderly relative's phone?
- jMyles 8y ago> The millions of desktops riddled with adware and viruses running to this day is pretty good evidence that most people cannot effectively manage software on a desktop OS. That seems like victim blaming to me. I think this is more like pretty good evidence that Microsoft has done a disservice to its users vis a vis their security. > Remember when you'd find four different toolbars on IE that your friend/family/neighbor had no idea how they got? Yeah. I fixed that problem by introducing them to Ubuntu and Firefox, not by cordoning off their ability to install applications of their choosing. > If you're on this site you are not most people. But, if it wasn't for the rules of Apple and Google what kind of things do you think Candy Crush would install on your elderly relative's phone? I dunno man, this seems like a very dangerous argument to me. It's like you're saying that there's a huge silent majority that is not qualified to be the sovereign over the machines in their life, and that's not my world view. I acknowledge that malware is a huge issue, but I think it's reasonably clear that the best ways of mitigating it do not include disempowering people or cutting their free speech at the knees.
- dwaite 8y ago> That seems like victim blaming to me. I think this is more like pretty good evidence that Microsoft has done a disservice to its users vis a vis their security. I squarely blame developers/designers. Not just Microsoft, but Netscape with SSL, Android with app permissions and side-loading, etc. There is this terrible historical concept that we can solve security issues with user education and work around design/deployment problems with security through obtuse user prompts. >> Remember when you'd find four different toolbars on IE that your friend/family/neighbor had no idea how they got? > Yeah. I fixed that problem by introducing them to Ubuntu and Firefox, not by cordoning off their ability to install applications of their choosing. Sure, just as long as you keep in mind that Firefox extensions and Ubuntu snaps/universe/multiverse aren't vetted for malware. Plus Firefox extensions (like those toolbars of days past) can inspect all traffic and capture things like credit cards and passwords. But hey, the user was notified that there was a risk and blindly hit OK - because it was the way to get the computer to do what they said they wanted the computer to do.
- Ataraxy 8y ago> most users are better served by a gatekeeper If you believe that's the case the bigger problem is the lack of education that leads to some people who are incapable of understanding the risks associated with doing so and not that they have access to do so.
- nicky0 8y agoMy mum is highly educated but somehow every time I visit her, her computer is full of fresh malware. Usually it's stuff like sketchy webpages that say "your Flash Player is out of date. Click here to install lates version." and they just do it. Malware makers will always find a way to trick people into installing their stuff.
- y_molodtsov 8y agoYes, let’s just educate everyone instead of bulding a better system in the first place.
- danShumway 8y agoOthers have already said this, but you can always add a gatekeeper on top of an open system. IMHO what closed systems like Apple propose is a false dichotomy. There's no reason why Apple couldn't allow sideloading apps and aggressively curate it's own store. The average user will use Apple certified apps and the power users who need more will sideload uncertified apps. If gatekeepers are as genuinely beneficial to end users as people claim, then there's no reason to force anyone to use them or to block off unofficial channels. If your claim is true then ordinary people will stick to the certified App store of their own volition because it makes them feel safe.
- JumpCrisscross 8y agoPut a phone permitting side loading in front of my mom or half my friends and they’ll find a way to get a virus within a month. Broadly speaking, freedom a consumer doesn’t understand isn’t freedom to them. Apple’s products are reliable in part due to their tight control over the ecosystem.
- danShumway 8y agoI kind of don't understand this. Nobody is forcing anyone to use sideloading. Heck, Android phones by default have sideloading turned off in the settings so you can't even accidentally do it without going through a bunch of warnings. Unless Android phones have an extra side-channel I don't know about, I just can't imagine someone sideloading an app on one of them unless they explicitly have decided the benefits outweigh the risks. And if an average consumer is going into their settings and explicitly turning off a security measure, then at what point does it become reasonable to say that they're doing it because the official app store is not good enough on its own for the average consumer? I get the whole "consumers are too stupid to know what's good for them" argument that people make sometimes, but I think that's a very tricky line to walk - especially when a company has a huge amount of profit tied up in deciding that individual freedom is a net negative.
- filleduchaos 8y agoCounterpoint: The sheer state of the average user's browser circa 2012
- chipotle_coyote 8y agoWhile that's probably true, Apple could bring to iOS what macOS has been doing for years: code-signed apps that aren't distributed through the App Store and aren't subject to any of the App Store's restrictions (and can't guarantee the ostensible security benefits), but can still be "disabled" by Apple if they prove to be bad actors. On macOS, there are actually three states for this: signed App Store apps, signed regular apps, and entirely unsigned apps. Users get to tell the system what to allow and disallow. There's no really good technical reason for Apple not to allow at least the first two categories on iOS by now. (That system on macOS is, for those who don't remember, called Gatekeeper!)
- codedokode 8y agoApple won't be able to receive its 30% revenue cut then.
- chipotle_coyote 8y agoThat may be the reason, but it's not a technical reason. :)
- saagarjha 8y ago> There's no really good technical reason for Apple not to allow at least the first two categories on iOS by now. But then I can sign a jailbreak with my developer certificate and pass it around. Now, you're going to say that such a thing has never happened on macOS, but the fact that it could happen because you've opened the door to it is something that should be considered.
- y_molodtsov 8y agoAs soon as it get wide enough they’d just block you.
- Qwertie 8y agoiOS doesn't allow this because Apple makes shitloads more money from mobile than desktop. They recently blocked Valves app from iOS because it allows you to stream games from another device which puts apples cut from the app store at risk. They don't care about steam on OSX because they make so much less money there.
- ocdtrekkie 8y agoAndroid is almost as locked to Google Play as Apple is to the App Store, to the effect that no vendor has made a successful business selling phones without the Play Store. While they've finally fixed it, for years, they used scare tactics to prevent sideloading by insinuating it as a security risk, requiring you allow "less secure apps" in order to sideload. Most applications won't run without Play Services even if you do sideload them, and Play Services can remote uninstall an app from every device anyways, should they choose to employ it. Yes, you can roll your own with a ROM and limit yourself to the tiny selection on F-Droid, but you enter an increasingly niche area. While it's "technically possible", it isn't really supported well enough to justify holding it as a benefit over a competing platform from a mainstream sense. Bear in mind, when faced with a technical question revolving around making a backup of APK files, a core Android engineer said they "didn't support piracy", which was... a pretty hefty accusation to throw around for an innocuous backup of apps for being able to sideload should they be pulled from the then-called Android Market.
- glglwty 8y agoI wonder how difficult/useful it would be to create a community-driven package management system, like AUR or nixpkgs. Is there any known attempt?
- walrus01 8y agoRegarding your first paragraph, all of the Chinese domestic versions of Android have been totally successful without the official Play Store. The manufacturer such as Huawei, zte, oppo, etc installs the Chinese app stores as part of the OS load. What you wrote applies to the English language market.
- ocdtrekkie 8y agoThis is a half truth. You are right in that Chinese companies have succeeded without the Play Store, but for one key reason: Google isn't in China. Literally the only place Android is open is where Google voluntarily isn't keeping it closed.
- 8y ago
- wafflebear 8y agoNot applicable to Telegram, but if the app is open source and you have a Mac (!) you can install it using Xcode. Since Signal is actually open source, you can install it even if Apple decides to block it in the future (if you have a Mac).
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- insulanus 8y agoThis is a great option if your audience has very high need, but it will not make it available to the average non-tech savvy person who needs it.
- Anon1096 8y agoTelegram clients are open source and can be built yourself.
- saagarjha 8y agoKinda. They're open source, but the source code is not updated frequently.
- mirimir 8y agoOK, but High Sierra VMs in VBox are pretty easy with vagrant. Plus the standard tweaks for running on Windows and Linux hosts. So technical users could install for their friends.
- gergles 8y agoDo note that it will only run for 7 days unless you pay Apple $100 a year for the privilege of running code on your own device. You can reinstall it every 7 days for free though!
- yoz-y 8y agoThis is only true for iOS apps, not for Mac Apps. You can get Xcode and compile whatever you want with it.