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My wife is a long-time hospital nurse, and she will be the first to tell you that hiring a nurse today is a much more tedious and time-consuming task than it wa

My wife is a long-time hospital nurse, and she will be the first to tell you that hiring a nurse today is a much more tedious and time-consuming task than it was back in the day. Entry-level educational requirements are higher now, for one, and the whole hiring process at her hospital (which used to be relatively quick and straightforward) is now both tedious and time-consuming. Not surprisingly, this leads to an on-going shortage of nurses, with significant job-hopping from one hospital floor to another, from one facility to another, or from one organization to another. And surprisingly (or maybe not) the "new and improved" hiring process hasn't necessarily led to an improvement in the overall candidate pool, and in at least some cases has caused a noticeable decline. As to "you don't have to do it again every time you switch jobs", nurses are often required to go through continuing education just to keep their licenses current. But making the jump from one type of nursing specialization to another, or even upgrading from an RN to a BSN (often required today if you want to keep your job - probably the exact same job that you've already been doing for ages) can be quite grueling - almost like starting over. In one recent case, a well-respected fellow nurse upgraded her education only to be to told that even that was no longer considered sufficient. She was already doing management-level work but didn't yet have the official title or the pay, and was told that she needed to go up an additional level in education in order to get that, so she just bailed - decades of experience walked out the door for no good reason.

commandlinefan 8y ago
> license current I continue to be shocked that software developers aren't licensed at least like RNs or CPAs are.
- NTDF9 8y ago
  >> I continue to be shocked that software developers aren't licensed at least like RNs or CPAs are. What a great idea! Let's call it a degree
  - Rychard 8y ago
    According to the Stack Overflow's 2016 Developer Survey [1], "56% of developers in fact do not have a college degree in computer science or related fields" Admittedly, the data is a few years old (and I didn't want to pull the same data from the 2018 survey), but such a requirement would put many people out of a job. I also haven't seen any concrete data that would support any correlation between the efficacy of a software engineer and whether they had obtained a college degree, so this seems like a poor metric. I share your incredulity regarding the lack of any sort of "occupational license" for the industry, though I remain unconvinced that instituting one would have a positive effect. [1] : https://stackoverflow.blog/2016/10/07/do-developers-need-college-degrees/ https://stackoverflow.blog/2016/10/07/do-developers-need-col...
    - dwoot 8y ago
      In the 2018 SO Dev Survey, only about 25% of developers don't have any degree: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#education https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#education
  - southern_cross 8y ago
    Except that the degree itself may not be worth much in practical terms. For example, as a working student (paid computer nerd by day, student by night) I quickly came to the conclusion that much of what I was being taught in the CS program just wasn't going to be useful out in the real world. For example, at one point I was taught the detailed in and outs of two's complement arithmetic, but that's something that I've never used in practice, and I've only even seen it referenced maybe once every decade or so, if that. (See the following link for a very recent drive-by encounter with this stuff: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2018/p0907r0.html http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2018/p090...) Meanwhile, pretty much anything that's been of any real value to me on the job I've taught myself on a just-in-time basis. As more recent examples, a few years back I took all three of the original free MOOCs from Stanford. In the ML class, Andrew Ng at one point said something like "If you've ever taken calculus then you will recognize this particular equation as being a derivative; otherwise don't worry about it because that's not really important." Later he said something similar about linear algebra and matrix multiplication. And indeed I had taken both calculus and linear algebra back in the day so I recognized what I was looking at, but it just wasn't important within the context of that advanced class. I also took the Database MOOC, and during that the instructor taught quite a bit of formal database theory. (I forget the proper name for it.) But despite having worked with databases for decades now I've only seen such theory referenced maybe twice, and that just in passing, so it's hardly the "critical, need-to-know" stuff that the instructor insisted that it was. Meanwhile, in the AI MOOC almost everything taught there was new to me, despite my having taken several AI classes back in the day; so basically zero overlap between then and now. (I did recognize some of the statistical stuff, though, from my statistics class way back when.) But will any of the new stuff ever be of any practical use to me? Probably not. Interesting certainly, but probably not at all practical.
- dwoot 8y ago
  1. RNs have people's lives in their hands 2. CPAs have a fiduciary responsibility to their clients, especially in tax services I think it is generally accepted that licenses don't signify "quality". What are you hoping to gain with a license? Some badge that somebody can show to a prospective employer, so that they don't quiz you on capabilities? I think we can agree that the field and knowledge required to perform as an RN doesn't change that often and the same goes for CPAs. However, the world of software is changing constantly. How could a licensing process ever stay up to date? Sure we could just test CS fundamentals and give people a stamp -- essentially what a degree is supposed to do. But if you're a software developer, like myself, that has interviewed many people and been subjected to many interviews, I know it's not a perfect process, but I've come across people that have exaggerated their abilities on resumés. One of the great things about software is GitHub, Bitbucket, etc. Why? Because it sometimes provides a window into the work of a developer before they make it on-site. I'd be happy if the industry as a whole just accepted this as the resumé and leaving the in-person interview as one that's non-technical, save for maybe something like FizzBuzz. From my perspective, I think the idea of licensing is just an okay process for other fields. Without an interval of re-testing, how can we ensure that service providers can still deliver? I have friends that work at medical centers with doctors that have been there for decades that seem to have forgotten a thing or two, but refuse to accept the answer to a symptom or problem that is fresh in a new or recent grad's mind that's had fatal consequences. It's sad.
  - southern_cross 8y ago
    On the other hand, as a nurse my wife can relay stories going back to her earliest working days where more experienced medical personnel often had to step in to prevent a newly minted doctor from harming or potentially even killing a patient. I remember that giving oxygen was often the issue here, where the new doctors seemed to think that giving more oxygen was always better, but the nurses knew that giving too much oxygen can put a patient into crisis. (I forget why.) She hasn't mentioned this particular issue in ages now, though, so I guess these days medical schools are doing a better job here.
sanderjd 8y ago
Continuing education is different, and in my opinion far more valuable, than preparing for tech interviews. I may still complain (because it's time consuming), but I would feel much much better about needing to learn some actual new stuff to move up a level. Instead, we go back and refresh old stuff which we don't remember very well because it hardly ever comes up.

commandlinefan 8y ago

> license current I continue to be shocked that software developers aren't licensed at least like RNs or CPAs are.

NTDF9 8y ago
>> I continue to be shocked that software developers aren't licensed at least like RNs or CPAs are. What a great idea! Let's call it a degree
- Rychard 8y ago
  According to the Stack Overflow's 2016 Developer Survey [1], "56% of developers in fact do not have a college degree in computer science or related fields" Admittedly, the data is a few years old (and I didn't want to pull the same data from the 2018 survey), but such a requirement would put many people out of a job. I also haven't seen any concrete data that would support any correlation between the efficacy of a software engineer and whether they had obtained a college degree, so this seems like a poor metric. I share your incredulity regarding the lack of any sort of "occupational license" for the industry, though I remain unconvinced that instituting one would have a positive effect. [1] : https://stackoverflow.blog/2016/10/07/do-developers-need-college-degrees/ https://stackoverflow.blog/2016/10/07/do-developers-need-col...
  - dwoot 8y ago
    In the 2018 SO Dev Survey, only about 25% of developers don't have any degree: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#education https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#education
- southern_cross 8y ago
  Except that the degree itself may not be worth much in practical terms. For example, as a working student (paid computer nerd by day, student by night) I quickly came to the conclusion that much of what I was being taught in the CS program just wasn't going to be useful out in the real world. For example, at one point I was taught the detailed in and outs of two's complement arithmetic, but that's something that I've never used in practice, and I've only even seen it referenced maybe once every decade or so, if that. (See the following link for a very recent drive-by encounter with this stuff: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2018/p0907r0.html http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2018/p090...) Meanwhile, pretty much anything that's been of any real value to me on the job I've taught myself on a just-in-time basis. As more recent examples, a few years back I took all three of the original free MOOCs from Stanford. In the ML class, Andrew Ng at one point said something like "If you've ever taken calculus then you will recognize this particular equation as being a derivative; otherwise don't worry about it because that's not really important." Later he said something similar about linear algebra and matrix multiplication. And indeed I had taken both calculus and linear algebra back in the day so I recognized what I was looking at, but it just wasn't important within the context of that advanced class. I also took the Database MOOC, and during that the instructor taught quite a bit of formal database theory. (I forget the proper name for it.) But despite having worked with databases for decades now I've only seen such theory referenced maybe twice, and that just in passing, so it's hardly the "critical, need-to-know" stuff that the instructor insisted that it was. Meanwhile, in the AI MOOC almost everything taught there was new to me, despite my having taken several AI classes back in the day; so basically zero overlap between then and now. (I did recognize some of the statistical stuff, though, from my statistics class way back when.) But will any of the new stuff ever be of any practical use to me? Probably not. Interesting certainly, but probably not at all practical.
dwoot 8y ago
1. RNs have people's lives in their hands 2. CPAs have a fiduciary responsibility to their clients, especially in tax services I think it is generally accepted that licenses don't signify "quality". What are you hoping to gain with a license? Some badge that somebody can show to a prospective employer, so that they don't quiz you on capabilities? I think we can agree that the field and knowledge required to perform as an RN doesn't change that often and the same goes for CPAs. However, the world of software is changing constantly. How could a licensing process ever stay up to date? Sure we could just test CS fundamentals and give people a stamp -- essentially what a degree is supposed to do. But if you're a software developer, like myself, that has interviewed many people and been subjected to many interviews, I know it's not a perfect process, but I've come across people that have exaggerated their abilities on resumés. One of the great things about software is GitHub, Bitbucket, etc. Why? Because it sometimes provides a window into the work of a developer before they make it on-site. I'd be happy if the industry as a whole just accepted this as the resumé and leaving the in-person interview as one that's non-technical, save for maybe something like FizzBuzz. From my perspective, I think the idea of licensing is just an okay process for other fields. Without an interval of re-testing, how can we ensure that service providers can still deliver? I have friends that work at medical centers with doctors that have been there for decades that seem to have forgotten a thing or two, but refuse to accept the answer to a symptom or problem that is fresh in a new or recent grad's mind that's had fatal consequences. It's sad.
- southern_cross 8y ago
  On the other hand, as a nurse my wife can relay stories going back to her earliest working days where more experienced medical personnel often had to step in to prevent a newly minted doctor from harming or potentially even killing a patient. I remember that giving oxygen was often the issue here, where the new doctors seemed to think that giving more oxygen was always better, but the nurses knew that giving too much oxygen can put a patient into crisis. (I forget why.) She hasn't mentioned this particular issue in ages now, though, so I guess these days medical schools are doing a better job here.

sanderjd 8y ago

Continuing education is different, and in my opinion far more valuable, than preparing for tech interviews. I may still complain (because it's time consuming), but I would feel much much better about needing to learn some actual new stuff to move up a level. Instead, we go back and refresh old stuff which we don't remember very well because it hardly ever comes up.