7 ms·

Scientists find 'friendliness' genes that distinguish dogs from wolves

82 points by startupflix 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jrs95 8y ago
Awesome! Now, could we please find a way to give this gene to people? I feel like we could really use it.
- wollstonecraft 8y ago
  Simply delete 27 genes from part of chromosome 7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_syndrome
- snackbugs 8y ago
  Dogs were bred with this friendliness to be willing laborers with their own safety being a secondary concern to doing a job given to them. Think of how quickly and eagerly this would be used by those who want exploitable labor from humans.
  - tcbawo 8y ago
    In a few generations' time, we might have capable enough robots.
    - Andre_Wanglin 8y ago
      And self-replicating robots at that! They will just require food, water, and shelter as inputs.
      - tejtm 8y ago
        “The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labor.” Wernher von Braun
  - jrs95 8y ago
    The initial thing though, before what you’re describing, is just getting dogs that are friendly enough not to try and eat you.
cangencer 8y ago
"Unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in most European countries. We are engaged on the issue and committed to looking at options that support our full range of digital offerings to the EU market. We continue to identify technical compliance solutions that will provide all readers with our award-winning journalism."
- milkmiruku 8y ago
  * http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wVIlaJBHj1MJ:www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-dog-friendliness-genes-20170719-story.html&num=1&hl=en&gl=uk&strip=1&vwsrc=0#f0dWSsH62HSSSq http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wVIlaJB... * http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/7/e1700398 http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/7/e1700398 - Structural variants in genes associated with human Williams-Beuren syndrome underlie stereotypical hypersociability in domestic dogs 2017
- nickthegreek 8y ago
  does outline.com allow GDPR blocks to load the content?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
mbfg 8y ago
Udell said that these results agreed with previous studies that have shown that dogs are not as good at independent problem-solving as wolves, and that they get more distracted by social stimulation. I'm not sure that's true. I think dogs have fantastic problem solving skills. The solutions, however, are typically to use the human to solve their problems.
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  "Independent" problem-solving.
  - mbfg 8y ago
    what does independent mean, tho? If you consider the human just a tool, then the dog is solving it independently.
    - moron4hire 8y ago
      The issue of the word "tool" having been used in reference to you in particular not withstanding, it's pretty well understood that collaboration is not tool-using.
    - hyperpallium 8y ago
      In an interdependent universe, every problem is solved independently - by the universe.
    - woodandsteel 8y ago
      In this case, independent means without human help.
- labster 8y ago
  Yes, I've observed this behavior as well. If they come across a problem they know they can't solve (i.e. rat in a tree), they come ask you if you have any ideas. This isn't limited to domestic animals, though. Ravens, upon finding a corpse of an large animal that they can't break the hide to get to the delicious meat, will make a racket to attract predators. Hearing the noise a wolf, coyote, bear, or bobcat comes along opens the dead animal, has a nice meal, and the ravens get the leftovers. That's ravens for you, using their own predators as tools.
Andre_Wanglin 8y ago
Dmitri Belyayev's decades-long study on silver foxes produced animals that began to distinguish markedly different morphological features (bushy tails, floppy ears, spotted coats) and physiology (lower adrenaline and stress hormone levels, smaller skulls, longer breeding seasons, larger litter sizes) by selecting strictly for tameness, which they defined simply as aggression toward humans.[0] Belyayev was forced to live in Siberia to carry out this work as Mendelian geneticists and biologists were officially condemned (denounced as "fascist" and many were executed) by the Soviet state as it supported Lysenkoism, a Lamarckian psuedo-scientific theory that minimized the role of genes on behavior, which allied well with Soviet and Marxist ideology. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Belyayev_(zoologist)#Belyayev's_fox_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Belyayev_(zoologist)#Be...
- carb 8y ago
  That was a very interesting read, thanks for sharing.
- tlb 8y ago
  I'm skeptical of this research. What if the breeder's subjective evaluation of tameness was influenced by bushy tails and floppy ears, as most people's would be? You'd end up breeding both traits in, without the same genes being involved.
  - gwern 8y ago
    http://www.terrierman.com/russianfoxfarmstudy.pdf http://www.terrierman.com/russianfoxfarmstudy.pdf "At seven or eight months, when the foxes reach sexual maturity, they are scored for tameness and assigned to one of three classes. The least domesticated foxes, those that flee from experimenters or bite when stroked or handled, are assigned to Class III. (Even Class III foxes are tamer than the calmest farm-bred foxes. Among other things, they allow themselves to be hand fed.) Foxes in Class II let themselves be petted and handled but show no emotionally friendly response to experimenters. Foxes in Class I are friendly toward experimenters, wagging their tails and whining. In the sixth generation bred for tameness we had to add an even higher-scoring category. Members of Class IE, the “domesticated elite,” are eager to establish human contact, whimpering to attract attention and sniffing and licking experimenters like dogs." Pretty hard and fast criteria. Hard to let a slightly bushier tail affect your evaluation of whether a fox just snapped at you.
dluan 8y ago
This project was just funded on Experiment. https://experiment.com/projects/what-genes-make-domestic-dogs-friendlier-than-wolves https://experiment.com/projects/what-genes-make-domestic-dog...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
SomeT 8y ago
Could this happen to humans with AI domesticating them? lol
smoll 8y ago
I just visited Bali and encountered the Bali Street Dog for the first time, which is apparently a semi-feral breed that basically doesn’t care about humans at all http://bawabali.com/bali-heritage-dog/2585-2/ http://bawabali.com/bali-heritage-dog/2585-2/ I wonder if they lost the genes that the study identified as causing hyper-sociability, or if they still have it but the phenotype is suppressed for various reasons (e.g. environmental)
- reustle 8y ago
  I spent a few years in SE Asia and saw some abuse of stray street dogs in the city. Then I realized why the dogs were so calm/shy around humans.
hyperpallium 8y ago
I like the neoteny view of dogs: as wolves retaining juvenile (puppy-like) characteristics into adulthood (reproductive maturity). But the genetic link found here need not be at odds, for it could be the genetic basis of neoteny, and explain other characteristics, like those found in the Siberian fox domestication experiment (see other comments), and other domesticated animals. It may also be that homo homo sapiens has also been domesticated by this same genetic mechanism... although an extreme mutation results in Williams-Beuren syndrome, a milder mutation may be prevalent, compared with, say apes, neanderthals, or other hominids (though, sufficient DNA for comparative analysis is unlikely).
pmontra 8y ago
I'm not sure it's about the same discovery because it's from 2017 but this is an article that we can read from Europe http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/07/what-makes-dogs-so-friendly-study-finds-genetic-link-super-outgoing-people http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/07/what-makes-dogs-so-fr... Remember that LAT is blocking Europe because of GDPR.

82 points by startupflix 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jrs95 8y ago

Awesome! Now, could we please find a way to give this gene to people? I feel like we could really use it.

wollstonecraft 8y ago
Simply delete 27 genes from part of chromosome 7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_syndrome
snackbugs 8y ago
Dogs were bred with this friendliness to be willing laborers with their own safety being a secondary concern to doing a job given to them. Think of how quickly and eagerly this would be used by those who want exploitable labor from humans.
- tcbawo 8y ago
  In a few generations' time, we might have capable enough robots.
  - Andre_Wanglin 8y ago
    And self-replicating robots at that! They will just require food, water, and shelter as inputs.
    - tejtm 8y ago
      “The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labor.” Wernher von Braun
- jrs95 8y ago
  The initial thing though, before what you’re describing, is just getting dogs that are friendly enough not to try and eat you.

cangencer 8y ago

"Unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in most European countries. We are engaged on the issue and committed to looking at options that support our full range of digital offerings to the EU market. We continue to identify technical compliance solutions that will provide all readers with our award-winning journalism."

milkmiruku 8y ago
* http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wVIlaJBHj1MJ:www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-dog-friendliness-genes-20170719-story.html&num=1&hl=en&gl=uk&strip=1&vwsrc=0#f0dWSsH62HSSSq http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wVIlaJB... * http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/7/e1700398 http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/7/e1700398 - Structural variants in genes associated with human Williams-Beuren syndrome underlie stereotypical hypersociability in domestic dogs 2017
nickthegreek 8y ago
does outline.com allow GDPR blocks to load the content?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

mbfg 8y ago

Udell said that these results agreed with previous studies that have shown that dogs are not as good at independent problem-solving as wolves, and that they get more distracted by social stimulation. I'm not sure that's true. I think dogs have fantastic problem solving skills. The solutions, however, are typically to use the human to solve their problems.

thaumasiotes 8y ago
"Independent" problem-solving.
- mbfg 8y ago
  what does independent mean, tho? If you consider the human just a tool, then the dog is solving it independently.
  - moron4hire 8y ago
    The issue of the word "tool" having been used in reference to you in particular not withstanding, it's pretty well understood that collaboration is not tool-using.
  - hyperpallium 8y ago
    In an interdependent universe, every problem is solved independently - by the universe.
  - woodandsteel 8y ago
    In this case, independent means without human help.
labster 8y ago
Yes, I've observed this behavior as well. If they come across a problem they know they can't solve (i.e. rat in a tree), they come ask you if you have any ideas. This isn't limited to domestic animals, though. Ravens, upon finding a corpse of an large animal that they can't break the hide to get to the delicious meat, will make a racket to attract predators. Hearing the noise a wolf, coyote, bear, or bobcat comes along opens the dead animal, has a nice meal, and the ravens get the leftovers. That's ravens for you, using their own predators as tools.

Andre_Wanglin 8y ago

Dmitri Belyayev's decades-long study on silver foxes produced animals that began to distinguish markedly different morphological features (bushy tails, floppy ears, spotted coats) and physiology (lower adrenaline and stress hormone levels, smaller skulls, longer breeding seasons, larger litter sizes) by selecting strictly for tameness, which they defined simply as aggression toward humans.[0] Belyayev was forced to live in Siberia to carry out this work as Mendelian geneticists and biologists were officially condemned (denounced as "fascist" and many were executed) by the Soviet state as it supported Lysenkoism, a Lamarckian psuedo-scientific theory that minimized the role of genes on behavior, which allied well with Soviet and Marxist ideology. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Belyayev_(zoologist)#Belyayev's_fox_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Belyayev_(zoologist)#Be...

carb 8y ago
That was a very interesting read, thanks for sharing.
tlb 8y ago
I'm skeptical of this research. What if the breeder's subjective evaluation of tameness was influenced by bushy tails and floppy ears, as most people's would be? You'd end up breeding both traits in, without the same genes being involved.
- gwern 8y ago
  http://www.terrierman.com/russianfoxfarmstudy.pdf http://www.terrierman.com/russianfoxfarmstudy.pdf "At seven or eight months, when the foxes reach sexual maturity, they are scored for tameness and assigned to one of three classes. The least domesticated foxes, those that flee from experimenters or bite when stroked or handled, are assigned to Class III. (Even Class III foxes are tamer than the calmest farm-bred foxes. Among other things, they allow themselves to be hand fed.) Foxes in Class II let themselves be petted and handled but show no emotionally friendly response to experimenters. Foxes in Class I are friendly toward experimenters, wagging their tails and whining. In the sixth generation bred for tameness we had to add an even higher-scoring category. Members of Class IE, the “domesticated elite,” are eager to establish human contact, whimpering to attract attention and sniffing and licking experimenters like dogs." Pretty hard and fast criteria. Hard to let a slightly bushier tail affect your evaluation of whether a fox just snapped at you.

dluan 8y ago

This project was just funded on Experiment. https://experiment.com/projects/what-genes-make-domestic-dogs-friendlier-than-wolves https://experiment.com/projects/what-genes-make-domestic-dog...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

SomeT 8y ago

Could this happen to humans with AI domesticating them? lol

smoll 8y ago

I just visited Bali and encountered the Bali Street Dog for the first time, which is apparently a semi-feral breed that basically doesn’t care about humans at all http://bawabali.com/bali-heritage-dog/2585-2/ http://bawabali.com/bali-heritage-dog/2585-2/ I wonder if they lost the genes that the study identified as causing hyper-sociability, or if they still have it but the phenotype is suppressed for various reasons (e.g. environmental)

reustle 8y ago
I spent a few years in SE Asia and saw some abuse of stray street dogs in the city. Then I realized why the dogs were so calm/shy around humans.

hyperpallium 8y ago

I like the neoteny view of dogs: as wolves retaining juvenile (puppy-like) characteristics into adulthood (reproductive maturity). But the genetic link found here need not be at odds, for it could be the genetic basis of neoteny, and explain other characteristics, like those found in the Siberian fox domestication experiment (see other comments), and other domesticated animals. It may also be that homo homo sapiens has also been domesticated by this same genetic mechanism... although an extreme mutation results in Williams-Beuren syndrome, a milder mutation may be prevalent, compared with, say apes, neanderthals, or other hominids (though, sufficient DNA for comparative analysis is unlikely).

pmontra 8y ago

I'm not sure it's about the same discovery because it's from 2017 but this is an article that we can read from Europe http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/07/what-makes-dogs-so-friendly-study-finds-genetic-link-super-outgoing-people http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/07/what-makes-dogs-so-fr... Remember that LAT is blocking Europe because of GDPR.