5 ms·

I am very happy to take a month of brushing up on algorithms and so on every few years as I want a new job as opposed to an additional several years of school.

draw_down 8y ago
How is that a response to GP’s point?
e40 8y ago
In the example given, a nurse wouldn't need additional schooling to switch jobs.
- szermer 8y ago
  Everyone in the medical profession needs continuing education (CE) credits. Not much different from certs that support folks need to obtain if they work government/ DoD positions. https://www.nurse.com/state-nurse-ce-requirements https://www.nurse.com/state-nurse-ce-requirements
  - vonmoltke 8y ago
    CE classes for nearly all professions are a joke compared to the shit software engineers are expected to go through to rehearse for interviews. As for government work, I'm not sure where you got that idea from. I did government work for 14 years and never needed any certifications. If I had, the company would have paid for it and it would have been on company time.
  - sanderjd 8y ago
    Imagine CE credits for things like distributed systems and machine learning as you move along in your career: wouldn't that be more useful than brushing up on that Trie algorithm you'll never implement?
    - fjsolwmv 8y ago
      Sure. So get that executive masters or Coursera certificate, and then spend an hour convincing an employer that you actually learned something in your course.
      - sanderjd 8y ago
        It would be great if the continuing education most of us actually enjoy doing were a valuable thing to do. As it is, if you want to switch jobs, it's much more valuable to study old things that help with whiteboard interviews than to spend time learning new things.
  - e40 8y ago
    The issue is changing jobs, not keeping up with credits for your current job.
taude 8y ago
Do you have a family and other dependencies where taking a month off isn't really tenable after you leave your 20s, or whenever you settle down? It seems kind of absurd to take a month off every few years just to practice for a new job, whether the skills you're practicing are relevant or not to said job performance.
- jaredklewis 8y ago
  To me it doesn’t seem any more absurd than front loading 3 or more years of expensive professional school as do many other professions like lawyers, architects, and doctors. Just pretend you went to law school and have to make monthly loan repayments each month. Put that money in bank account and you will have more than enough savings to take off work for a month every few years. Median wage for programmers is nearly double the US median household income and has few barriers to entry. If the only downside is having to take a month off work every few years, I’m not complaining.
  - sanderjd 8y ago
    The model I envy isn't lawyers, it's PEs. Their professional degree isn't exorbitantly priced and the education is very useful for the career rather than busy work (by the accounts of those I know). Once the credential is earned, it is widely respected. Edit to add: In general, I don't think our system has to be worse than all others for it to be worthwhile to consider what might be better.
    - jaredklewis 8y ago
      Sure, but doesn’t it require 4 years of school + 4 years working under a licensed PE, then state exams? It is a very different set of trade offs than what we have in CS, where companies are more than willing to take a chance on bright people with non traditional backgrounds, including people that never went to college or dropped out. As a lifelong self-learner, I’ve certainly appreciated the lack of “credentialism” at tech companies. The one part of the PE thing that I would like to see borrowed is the exams. If all companies are just running everyone through the same kinds of general CS problems anyway, might as well save everyone time and improve consistency by making a standardized test.
sanderjd 8y ago
I'm sure I felt like this when I was jazzed at how easy it felt to get my first good job with just a BS. After a few times through the job switch ringer at this point I'm rather bored of it and would much prefer to have a widely respected professional accreditation to point to instead of all the repeated pointless work. But I don't think the extra-school way (like in my nursing school example) is the only way to achieve that; what I would personally like to see is an apprenticeship / craftsman model. I think a PE requires both a master's degree and apprenticeship. Maybe we could do the latter without the former? But this is idle wishing: the current system likely has to much inertia for real change at this point.

draw_down 8y ago

How is that a response to GP’s point?

e40 8y ago

In the example given, a nurse wouldn't need additional schooling to switch jobs.

szermer 8y ago
Everyone in the medical profession needs continuing education (CE) credits. Not much different from certs that support folks need to obtain if they work government/ DoD positions. https://www.nurse.com/state-nurse-ce-requirements https://www.nurse.com/state-nurse-ce-requirements
- vonmoltke 8y ago
  CE classes for nearly all professions are a joke compared to the shit software engineers are expected to go through to rehearse for interviews. As for government work, I'm not sure where you got that idea from. I did government work for 14 years and never needed any certifications. If I had, the company would have paid for it and it would have been on company time.
- sanderjd 8y ago
  Imagine CE credits for things like distributed systems and machine learning as you move along in your career: wouldn't that be more useful than brushing up on that Trie algorithm you'll never implement?
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    Sure. So get that executive masters or Coursera certificate, and then spend an hour convincing an employer that you actually learned something in your course.
    - sanderjd 8y ago
      It would be great if the continuing education most of us actually enjoy doing were a valuable thing to do. As it is, if you want to switch jobs, it's much more valuable to study old things that help with whiteboard interviews than to spend time learning new things.
- e40 8y ago
  The issue is changing jobs, not keeping up with credits for your current job.

taude 8y ago

Do you have a family and other dependencies where taking a month off isn't really tenable after you leave your 20s, or whenever you settle down? It seems kind of absurd to take a month off every few years just to practice for a new job, whether the skills you're practicing are relevant or not to said job performance.

jaredklewis 8y ago
To me it doesn’t seem any more absurd than front loading 3 or more years of expensive professional school as do many other professions like lawyers, architects, and doctors. Just pretend you went to law school and have to make monthly loan repayments each month. Put that money in bank account and you will have more than enough savings to take off work for a month every few years. Median wage for programmers is nearly double the US median household income and has few barriers to entry. If the only downside is having to take a month off work every few years, I’m not complaining.
- sanderjd 8y ago
  The model I envy isn't lawyers, it's PEs. Their professional degree isn't exorbitantly priced and the education is very useful for the career rather than busy work (by the accounts of those I know). Once the credential is earned, it is widely respected. Edit to add: In general, I don't think our system has to be worse than all others for it to be worthwhile to consider what might be better.
  - jaredklewis 8y ago
    Sure, but doesn’t it require 4 years of school + 4 years working under a licensed PE, then state exams? It is a very different set of trade offs than what we have in CS, where companies are more than willing to take a chance on bright people with non traditional backgrounds, including people that never went to college or dropped out. As a lifelong self-learner, I’ve certainly appreciated the lack of “credentialism” at tech companies. The one part of the PE thing that I would like to see borrowed is the exams. If all companies are just running everyone through the same kinds of general CS problems anyway, might as well save everyone time and improve consistency by making a standardized test.

sanderjd 8y ago

I'm sure I felt like this when I was jazzed at how easy it felt to get my first good job with just a BS. After a few times through the job switch ringer at this point I'm rather bored of it and would much prefer to have a widely respected professional accreditation to point to instead of all the repeated pointless work. But I don't think the extra-school way (like in my nursing school example) is the only way to achieve that; what I would personally like to see is an apprenticeship / craftsman model. I think a PE requires both a master's degree and apprenticeship. Maybe we could do the latter without the former? But this is idle wishing: the current system likely has to much inertia for real change at this point.