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I'm surprised at some of what's being said in this string of replies as well as what's being upvoted. Not you in particular, but I want this to be seen by peopl

by eavc 16y ago

I'm surprised at some of what's being said in this string of replies as well as what's being upvoted. Not you in particular, but I want this to be seen by people in multiple child-threads and am posting here. 1. $60k is pretty much a ceiling for earning potential for many if not most teachers. It can take a long, long time to get there with no hope of going beyond. 2. My teacher friends universally make under 40k. 3. They often have to spend their own money on supplies to subsidize the lack of funds in the system. 4. Many if not most teachers work more than 70 hours a week during the school year when factoring in grading, meetings, correspondence, athletics, extra-curriculars, and other events. 5. Many teachers clean up urine and vomit, are verbally assaulted by students as well as parents, are in a vacuum absent any meaningful feedback on the quality of their work, and deal with customers who almost never fully appreciate the service until ten or twenty years later. I could go on, but I'm not sure I understand how $60k as an typical top-end for a difficult and essentially important profession is inordinate and even less so how one can fail to see the need for supplemental funds in many cases to allow the teacher to fully do his or her job.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
1. $60k is pretty much a ceiling for earning potential for many if not most teachers. It can take a long, long time to get there with no hope of going beyond. $60k may be a ceiling for wage potential in many areas. It's not remotely close to their compensation potential, since teachers get quite a bit of their comp in the form of gold plated pensions rather than pay. In NYC, the starting compensation of a teacher is $60k/9.5 months work ($45k pay, $15k worth of pension). I'll cite a previous discussion where I did the math: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1673230 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1673230 4. Many if not most teachers work more than 70 hours a week during the school year when factoring in grading, meetings, correspondence, athletics, extra-curriculars, and other events. No. The average is about 39 hours/week during the school year. http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf Do you have evidence for point 3?
- CWuestefeld 16y ago
  Even if #3 is correct, I'm not entirely sympathetic. In many trades, e.g., auto mechanic, it's standard practice for the worker to provide his own tools. That can easily come to a few thousand dollars. Even as a software engineer (where my main development environment is provided by my employer), I spend a not-inconsiderable sum on additional tools that allow me to work more efficiently. So if it's true that sometimes teachers need to kick in a bit, that's far from an aberration across the universe of employment. ADDED: 5. Many teachers ... are in a vacuum absent any meaningful feedback on the quality of their work Isn't this their own doing, at least as much as the teachers' unions are working to prevent any merit-based compensation system?
  - eavc 16y ago
    Mechanics have to buy their own oil? They have to pay for customers' washer fluid? Do you pay for the stapler you use at work? As for the vacuum comment, you are speaking to the collective. I'm talking about individual teachers, many of the best of which are harmed by the teachers' unions.
- eavc 16y ago
  1. Future pensions aren't relevant to a discussion of present income vs expenses. At issue here is whether or not a teacher might reasonably be cash-strapped. 4. Many teachers work over 70 hours a week. Your data includes preschool and middle school teachers. It includes P.E. teachers. It includes awful teachers. I can promise you that there are many excellent teachers easily passing that number on a regular basis. My two closest teacher friends arrive at school before 7:30am and often don't leave until 6pm. They work through lunch. They often have days where they don't get home until 10pm due to athletics or arts activities they are involved in. They each make less than 40k a year. I have seen it first hand. It's common knowledge among those who are close to teachers.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    Future pensions are completely relevant. A person earning $60k/year needs to save at least $10k of that for retirement. A teacher earning $45k/year does not. Besides, if a teacher really feels cash strapped, he or she has 2-3 months in which to earn more money. For every teacher working 70 hours/week, there must be 7.75 teachers working only 35 hours/week (or 15.5 teachers working 37 hours/week, or some similar combination). To see this, observe that the BLS data I cited is capped below at 35 [1] and do some basic arithmetic. So at best, for every teacher working 70 hours/week, there are 7.75 teachers working 35 hour weeks.
CWuestefeld 16y ago
$60k is pretty much a ceiling for earning potential for many if not most teachers This may be a regional thing, but here in NJ that's not even close to true. For example: The [Tea Neck] district's Median Teacher Salary of $66,900 is ranked 92nd in the state in its grouping https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Teaneck%2C_New_Jersey#Public_schools https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Teaneck%2C_Ne... Also: (http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-Jersey-teacher-salary http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-Jersey-teacher-salary ) How do salaries grow in New Jersey? Starting Salary: $38,408 Average Salary: $58,156 And a friendly bar graph, comparing states: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=High_School_Teacher/Salary/by_State http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=High_School_Teacher/... This chart (http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=High_School_Teacher/Salary/by_Years_Experience http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=High_School_Teacher/... ) Shows that nationally, a high school teacher with 20 years' experience is probably making $50K-$70K
- eavc 16y ago
  Thanks. I stand corrected.

by eavc 16y ago

yummyfajitas 16y ago

1. $60k is pretty much a ceiling for earning potential for many if not most teachers. It can take a long, long time to get there with no hope of going beyond. $60k may be a ceiling for wage potential in many areas. It's not remotely close to their compensation potential, since teachers get quite a bit of their comp in the form of gold plated pensions rather than pay. In NYC, the starting compensation of a teacher is $60k/9.5 months work ($45k pay, $15k worth of pension). I'll cite a previous discussion where I did the math: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1673230 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1673230 4. Many if not most teachers work more than 70 hours a week during the school year when factoring in grading, meetings, correspondence, athletics, extra-curriculars, and other events. No. The average is about 39 hours/week during the school year. http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf Do you have evidence for point 3?

CWuestefeld 16y ago
Even if #3 is correct, I'm not entirely sympathetic. In many trades, e.g., auto mechanic, it's standard practice for the worker to provide his own tools. That can easily come to a few thousand dollars. Even as a software engineer (where my main development environment is provided by my employer), I spend a not-inconsiderable sum on additional tools that allow me to work more efficiently. So if it's true that sometimes teachers need to kick in a bit, that's far from an aberration across the universe of employment. ADDED: 5. Many teachers ... are in a vacuum absent any meaningful feedback on the quality of their work Isn't this their own doing, at least as much as the teachers' unions are working to prevent any merit-based compensation system?
- eavc 16y ago
  Mechanics have to buy their own oil? They have to pay for customers' washer fluid? Do you pay for the stapler you use at work? As for the vacuum comment, you are speaking to the collective. I'm talking about individual teachers, many of the best of which are harmed by the teachers' unions.
eavc 16y ago
1. Future pensions aren't relevant to a discussion of present income vs expenses. At issue here is whether or not a teacher might reasonably be cash-strapped. 4. Many teachers work over 70 hours a week. Your data includes preschool and middle school teachers. It includes P.E. teachers. It includes awful teachers. I can promise you that there are many excellent teachers easily passing that number on a regular basis. My two closest teacher friends arrive at school before 7:30am and often don't leave until 6pm. They work through lunch. They often have days where they don't get home until 10pm due to athletics or arts activities they are involved in. They each make less than 40k a year. I have seen it first hand. It's common knowledge among those who are close to teachers.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  Future pensions are completely relevant. A person earning $60k/year needs to save at least $10k of that for retirement. A teacher earning $45k/year does not. Besides, if a teacher really feels cash strapped, he or she has 2-3 months in which to earn more money. For every teacher working 70 hours/week, there must be 7.75 teachers working only 35 hours/week (or 15.5 teachers working 37 hours/week, or some similar combination). To see this, observe that the BLS data I cited is capped below at 35 [1] and do some basic arithmetic. So at best, for every teacher working 70 hours/week, there are 7.75 teachers working 35 hour weeks.

CWuestefeld 16y ago

$60k is pretty much a ceiling for earning potential for many if not most teachers This may be a regional thing, but here in NJ that's not even close to true. For example: The [Tea Neck] district's Median Teacher Salary of $66,900 is ranked 92nd in the state in its grouping https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Teaneck%2C_New_Jersey#Public_schools https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Teaneck%2C_Ne... Also: (http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-Jersey-teacher-salary http://teacherportal.com/salary/New-Jersey-teacher-salary ) How do salaries grow in New Jersey? Starting Salary: $38,408 Average Salary: $58,156 And a friendly bar graph, comparing states: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=High_School_Teacher/Salary/by_State http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=High_School_Teacher/... This chart (http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=High_School_Teacher/Salary/by_Years_Experience http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=High_School_Teacher/... ) Shows that nationally, a high school teacher with 20 years' experience is probably making $50K-$70K

eavc 16y ago
Thanks. I stand corrected.