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For many, this won't even begin to offset the increase in income and property taxes from this notoriously high-tax state. Individual or business, you're likely

For many, this won't even begin to offset the increase in income and property taxes from this notoriously high-tax state. Individual or business, you're likely to pay more. http://money.cnn.com/gallery/smallbusiness/2012/10/15/state-taxes/4.html http://money.cnn.com/gallery/smallbusiness/2012/10/15/state-... >>The income tax has a top rate of 8.95%. This ranks as the sixth-highest in the U.S., although it only applies to taxpayers making over $413,350 per year. Meanwhile, total state and local sales taxes range from 6% to 7%. >>There are five income brackets. The highest marginal rate is 8.95% on any income over $388,350. That's on top of federal income taxes. >>Businesses pay an effective property tax rate of 5.27%, the third highest in the country. >>At 6%, sales taxes are also on the high side. Meanwhile, those businesses that pay corporate taxes get hit with an 8.5% rate for any profit made above $25,000.

eezurr 8y ago
Not to mention Burlington, VT has it's own city sales* tax as well (around 2.5% IIRC)
DFHippie 8y ago
I moved to Vermont to work remotely in DC without the $10K incentive. That was some 12 years ago. My quality of life and that of my family is vastly improved. I wouldn't have moved to New Hampshire, though I can see it from where I'm standing in Vermont. The point isn't to get everyone to move, but to motivate some people who otherwise like what Vermont has to offer but are on the edge. If you are more on the European democratic socialist end of the spectrum of preferences and you plan to live in the US, Vermont will probably suit you. If you're on the right-to-workers end, you'd probably prefer someplace else.
- p1esk 8y ago
  Where did you move from, and how has your life improved?
  - DFHippie 8y ago
    From DC. DC has its advantages: free museums, good mass transit by US standards, lots of federal money being spent locally, a diverse ethnic mix with accompanying cultural and culinary diversity. The cost of real estate is astronomical, though. The schools generally suck unless you can swing something plush like Sidwell Friends. I've lived in other places as well, always moving for school, employment, or, when I was younger, someone else's school or employment. I found that I could telecommute, though, and so we moved to a place we wanted to be for its own sake. The things I like about Vermont: the climate, the culture, the natural and built environment. And frankly I like living in a place where I don't have to apologize for the cruel, exploitative history or the short-sighted or selfish political decisions of the populace. It's beautiful. There's a lot of art. My kids' school has great teachers, great facilities, and a lot of options. I have family who moved to the area, so that helps. The food is good. I walk into town to work. I can walk out my back door with my kids and hike to the top of a hill and have a beautiful view. I can take the bus home in the evening if the weather is bad. (I don't telecommute anymore, though I can work from home when I please.) We were living in a basement in DC. Now we have a house beside a brook.
Liquix 8y ago
On top of the taxes, housing is pretty bad too. You can be a reclusive hermit in southern / central VT on the cheap, but the closer you get to Burlington / Essex Jct the more expensive it gets. This is in part caused by the size of the University of Vermont - high demand for housing, small area. Many buildings have too many units crammed into them for the same reason. Not nearly as bad as the valley, but another reason not to pick this state for remote work... Source: Vermont resident with a local IT career
- pascalxus 8y ago
  thanks for pointing that out. terrible housing makes it a complete non-starter.
- pwthornton 8y ago
  This is one of the issues that this plan will run up into. Normally someone may work remotely in a more rural place for cheap housing, but some of the housing in Vermont isn't that cheap. Burlington has some of the same housing issues that other cities in the county have. I would imagine the vast majority of people who would consider doing this plan would want to live near Burlington. Well, that means Burlington would need to address housing supply and affordability too.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  Define "expensive", especially as many of us on this board are in California, and have a certain view of expensive.
- p1esk 8y ago
  I’m currently looking for a 3 bedroom apartment or a house to rent in Santa Barbara, and see nothing below $3K/mo. In fact anything decent is $3.5k or more. I work remotely, now looking for a cheaper place to live. What’s life like in Vermont?
  - Liquix 8y ago
    I love living in Vermont. People are friendly, nature is preserved, the mountains are gorgeous, and there are an abundance of small communities/groups you can join based on your interests (produce co-op, hiking, fishing, skiing, meditation, 3D printing, etc). The music scene is colorful and varied if you are into that. In general, things move slower and people are kinder (I come from Boston). Great place to lead a nice quiet introverted life among the trees or immerse yourself in local activities. As for rent, a nice 3BR goes for around 2-3k/mo in Burlington and gets substantially cheaper the farther south you look. It's not the cheapest nor most expensive state to live in, but the price:quality of life ratio is excellent.
notyourday 8y ago
Vermont legislature is clueless if it thinks this or anything else other than a major overhaul of tax system and modernization of the infrastructure would bring people to Vermont. I spent a few weeks recently bumming around the state. 1) Contrary to what Vermonters may think, real estate in Vermont is expensive. Not NYC or SF expensive but none the less very expensive unless it is in a totally need to be burned and rebuilt state. 2) Property taxes are ridiculous. Every time I look at a property I compare its property taxes to property taxes of comparable properties in other areas. Vermont loses to New York! It also loses to New Hampshire. Let this sink in - NH makes most of its revenue from property taxes and property taxes there are still smaller. 3) I put about 800 miles on my car in Vermont. One of the things I really pay attention to is overhead cables. Guess what? Outside what Vermont considers "major cities" cable break out and fiber break out boxes are nearly non-existent. Sat dishes everywhere sort of confirm the point. Internet connections in both random AirBNBs and regular BnBs sucked. Not the Amtrak level bad but close ( after I was done with Vermont I went to New Hampshire. Cable fiber boxes where everywhere and every place I was in had a very decent internet connectivity ) 4) Going out costs major $$. New York/Philadelphia level $$. For definitely not New York/Philadelphia level of variety or convenience.
- tclancy 8y ago
  >NH makes most of its revenue from property taxes and property taxes there are still smaller How are you defining "smaller"? NH is #2 and VT #9 at http://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/property-tax-by-state http://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/property-tax-by-state
  - notyourday 8y ago
    Mill rates are irrelevant. Assessments in VT are vastly higher.
- RHSeeger 8y ago
  > Vermont loses to New York To be fair, there's areas in NY with their own city or county property taxes on top of it. Westchester has, last I looked, the highest property taxes in the country.
NeutronStar 8y ago
Can't you deduce state tax from federal income? It's really weird seeing the US get scared of a 8% tax. Those taxes are services after all.
- Spooky23 8y ago
  The recent tax changes cap that at $10k, which is a problem for high-income people in blue states.
- beamatronic 8y ago
  It’s now capped at $10k with last years tax law change
- mrguyorama 8y ago
  Not (as much, see below) anymore. That was specifically removed by the recent tax overhaul The more cynical view is that this was done on purpose to harm blue states that tend to have higher state income taxes
  - leetcrew 8y ago
    > The more cynical view is that this was done on purpose to harm blue states that tend to have higher state income taxes this could very well be true, but it does seem unfair in the first place to be able to deduct state income tax. it's great that some states have decided to increase their income taxes to offer more services to their citizens, but why should tax payers in other states have to subsidize them without receiving any benefit?
    - dahdum 8y ago
      While I benefited from that deduction, it never seemed fair that that the rest of the country had to kick in a tiny bit extra to give upper middle and above taxpayers a break.
    - Redoubts 8y ago
      Generally those states pay more than they receive in federal funds.
jimhefferon 8y ago
> notoriously high-tax state Some societies think that it is wise to spend on some things such as education (see https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/06/02/the-states-that-spend-the-most-and-the-least-on-education-in-one-map/?utm_term=.62e31ec15029 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/06/02/the-...). Others think that lowering taxes at whatever cost is better. The former fits with my thinking, which is why I like it here.
- jimmy1 8y ago
  > notoriously high-tax state Some societies think that it is wise to spend on some things such as education (see https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/06/02/the-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/06/02/the-...). Others think that lowering taxes at whatever cost is better. The former fits with my thinking, which is why I like it here. It's a little more nuanced than that, and not necessarily an either/or as you have described it. More than likely in my experience, the people who think lowering taxes is good think so because they view the government as an inefficient, third-party spender and believe the money could be better spent more wisely elsewhere. While Vermont does rank high in K-12 (4th), it is ranked 36th in higher education. Vermont is also the 2nd least populated state in the country, so it remains to be seen how scale will impact the education system there.
  - 0xfeba 8y ago
    > More than likely in my experience, the people who think lowering taxes is good think so because they view the government as an inefficient [...] spender The government is made up of people. In my experience, it isn't the funding amount that correlates with inefficiencies, it's the distance from accountability that does. So one can reduce the taxes all one likes, a 30% wasteful department is still going to waste 30%. I'd rather target the inefficiencies themselves.
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    "More than likely in my experience, the people who think lowering taxes is good think so because they view the government as an inefficient, third-party spender and believe the money could be better spent more wisely elsewhere." People say that, but then they privatize functions of government, and if they're lucky, they end up with the same level of service. And then now there's a middleman involved who needs to get profit, meaning wages and service get cut.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
It doesn't seem like it's supposed to offset taxes, but rather to ease the financial burden of moving. There are more reasons other than taxation to consider moving. When I moved countries, I didn't even consider taxation when I moved. I make enough money that I'm comfortable, a couple of grand here and there isn't going to upset me. When I moved, it was for lifestyle reasons, which I think is the only sensible reason to move. If you're moving to Vermont to work remotely as an attempt at saving/earning more money, you're going to have a miserable time.
amichal 8y ago
High yes but 8.95% is the marginal rate for incomes over 413,350/yr. The median income (according to recent census data) is 57k/yr. On a 100k you would pay something like 5% to Vermont. $0 - $37,650 3.55% $37,650 - $91,150 6.80% $91,150 - $190,150 7.80% $190,150 - $413,350 8.80% $413,350+ 8.95% https://smartasset.com/taxes/vermont-tax-calculator https://smartasset.com/taxes/vermont-tax-calculator
kerkeslager 8y ago
Okay, but unlike the average denizen of HN, there are plenty of people who make decisions based on things other than money.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
Well, you can just look at Kansas to see what happens when you gut your taxes to where you can't actually pay for anything.
s2g 8y ago
Gee that seems so high. I do wonder why they only mentioned the tax rates for people making ~400k a year.
bonestamp2 8y ago
Not to mention, moving all the stuff in my house in 2015 cost a little over $30K. $10K is a nice gesture, but it wouldn't cover a whole household... 1-2 bedroom apartment maybe. That said, it's a beautiful state and if you want to work remotely and do a lot of skiing/hiking/etc then it could be a nice offset.

eezurr 8y ago

Not to mention Burlington, VT has it's own city sales* tax as well (around 2.5% IIRC)

DFHippie 8y ago

I moved to Vermont to work remotely in DC without the $10K incentive. That was some 12 years ago. My quality of life and that of my family is vastly improved. I wouldn't have moved to New Hampshire, though I can see it from where I'm standing in Vermont. The point isn't to get everyone to move, but to motivate some people who otherwise like what Vermont has to offer but are on the edge. If you are more on the European democratic socialist end of the spectrum of preferences and you plan to live in the US, Vermont will probably suit you. If you're on the right-to-workers end, you'd probably prefer someplace else.

p1esk 8y ago
Where did you move from, and how has your life improved?
- DFHippie 8y ago
  From DC. DC has its advantages: free museums, good mass transit by US standards, lots of federal money being spent locally, a diverse ethnic mix with accompanying cultural and culinary diversity. The cost of real estate is astronomical, though. The schools generally suck unless you can swing something plush like Sidwell Friends. I've lived in other places as well, always moving for school, employment, or, when I was younger, someone else's school or employment. I found that I could telecommute, though, and so we moved to a place we wanted to be for its own sake. The things I like about Vermont: the climate, the culture, the natural and built environment. And frankly I like living in a place where I don't have to apologize for the cruel, exploitative history or the short-sighted or selfish political decisions of the populace. It's beautiful. There's a lot of art. My kids' school has great teachers, great facilities, and a lot of options. I have family who moved to the area, so that helps. The food is good. I walk into town to work. I can walk out my back door with my kids and hike to the top of a hill and have a beautiful view. I can take the bus home in the evening if the weather is bad. (I don't telecommute anymore, though I can work from home when I please.) We were living in a basement in DC. Now we have a house beside a brook.

Liquix 8y ago

On top of the taxes, housing is pretty bad too. You can be a reclusive hermit in southern / central VT on the cheap, but the closer you get to Burlington / Essex Jct the more expensive it gets. This is in part caused by the size of the University of Vermont - high demand for housing, small area. Many buildings have too many units crammed into them for the same reason. Not nearly as bad as the valley, but another reason not to pick this state for remote work... Source: Vermont resident with a local IT career

pascalxus 8y ago
thanks for pointing that out. terrible housing makes it a complete non-starter.
pwthornton 8y ago
This is one of the issues that this plan will run up into. Normally someone may work remotely in a more rural place for cheap housing, but some of the housing in Vermont isn't that cheap. Burlington has some of the same housing issues that other cities in the county have. I would imagine the vast majority of people who would consider doing this plan would want to live near Burlington. Well, that means Burlington would need to address housing supply and affordability too.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
Define "expensive", especially as many of us on this board are in California, and have a certain view of expensive.
p1esk 8y ago
I’m currently looking for a 3 bedroom apartment or a house to rent in Santa Barbara, and see nothing below $3K/mo. In fact anything decent is $3.5k or more. I work remotely, now looking for a cheaper place to live. What’s life like in Vermont?
- Liquix 8y ago
  I love living in Vermont. People are friendly, nature is preserved, the mountains are gorgeous, and there are an abundance of small communities/groups you can join based on your interests (produce co-op, hiking, fishing, skiing, meditation, 3D printing, etc). The music scene is colorful and varied if you are into that. In general, things move slower and people are kinder (I come from Boston). Great place to lead a nice quiet introverted life among the trees or immerse yourself in local activities. As for rent, a nice 3BR goes for around 2-3k/mo in Burlington and gets substantially cheaper the farther south you look. It's not the cheapest nor most expensive state to live in, but the price:quality of life ratio is excellent.

notyourday 8y ago

Vermont legislature is clueless if it thinks this or anything else other than a major overhaul of tax system and modernization of the infrastructure would bring people to Vermont. I spent a few weeks recently bumming around the state. 1) Contrary to what Vermonters may think, real estate in Vermont is expensive. Not NYC or SF expensive but none the less very expensive unless it is in a totally need to be burned and rebuilt state. 2) Property taxes are ridiculous. Every time I look at a property I compare its property taxes to property taxes of comparable properties in other areas. Vermont loses to New York! It also loses to New Hampshire. Let this sink in - NH makes most of its revenue from property taxes and property taxes there are still smaller. 3) I put about 800 miles on my car in Vermont. One of the things I really pay attention to is overhead cables. Guess what? Outside what Vermont considers "major cities" cable break out and fiber break out boxes are nearly non-existent. Sat dishes everywhere sort of confirm the point. Internet connections in both random AirBNBs and regular BnBs sucked. Not the Amtrak level bad but close ( after I was done with Vermont I went to New Hampshire. Cable fiber boxes where everywhere and every place I was in had a very decent internet connectivity ) 4) Going out costs major $$. New York/Philadelphia level $$. For definitely not New York/Philadelphia level of variety or convenience.

tclancy 8y ago
>NH makes most of its revenue from property taxes and property taxes there are still smaller How are you defining "smaller"? NH is #2 and VT #9 at http://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/property-tax-by-state http://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/property-tax-by-state
- notyourday 8y ago
  Mill rates are irrelevant. Assessments in VT are vastly higher.
RHSeeger 8y ago
> Vermont loses to New York To be fair, there's areas in NY with their own city or county property taxes on top of it. Westchester has, last I looked, the highest property taxes in the country.

NeutronStar 8y ago

Can't you deduce state tax from federal income? It's really weird seeing the US get scared of a 8% tax. Those taxes are services after all.

Spooky23 8y ago
The recent tax changes cap that at $10k, which is a problem for high-income people in blue states.
beamatronic 8y ago
It’s now capped at $10k with last years tax law change
mrguyorama 8y ago
Not (as much, see below) anymore. That was specifically removed by the recent tax overhaul The more cynical view is that this was done on purpose to harm blue states that tend to have higher state income taxes
- leetcrew 8y ago
  > The more cynical view is that this was done on purpose to harm blue states that tend to have higher state income taxes this could very well be true, but it does seem unfair in the first place to be able to deduct state income tax. it's great that some states have decided to increase their income taxes to offer more services to their citizens, but why should tax payers in other states have to subsidize them without receiving any benefit?
  - dahdum 8y ago
    While I benefited from that deduction, it never seemed fair that that the rest of the country had to kick in a tiny bit extra to give upper middle and above taxpayers a break.
  - Redoubts 8y ago
    Generally those states pay more than they receive in federal funds.

jimhefferon 8y ago

> notoriously high-tax state Some societies think that it is wise to spend on some things such as education (see https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/06/02/the-states-that-spend-the-most-and-the-least-on-education-in-one-map/?utm_term=.62e31ec15029 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/06/02/the-...). Others think that lowering taxes at whatever cost is better. The former fits with my thinking, which is why I like it here.

jimmy1 8y ago
> notoriously high-tax state Some societies think that it is wise to spend on some things such as education (see https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/06/02/the-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/06/02/the-...). Others think that lowering taxes at whatever cost is better. The former fits with my thinking, which is why I like it here. It's a little more nuanced than that, and not necessarily an either/or as you have described it. More than likely in my experience, the people who think lowering taxes is good think so because they view the government as an inefficient, third-party spender and believe the money could be better spent more wisely elsewhere. While Vermont does rank high in K-12 (4th), it is ranked 36th in higher education. Vermont is also the 2nd least populated state in the country, so it remains to be seen how scale will impact the education system there.
- 0xfeba 8y ago
  > More than likely in my experience, the people who think lowering taxes is good think so because they view the government as an inefficient [...] spender The government is made up of people. In my experience, it isn't the funding amount that correlates with inefficiencies, it's the distance from accountability that does. So one can reduce the taxes all one likes, a 30% wasteful department is still going to waste 30%. I'd rather target the inefficiencies themselves.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  "More than likely in my experience, the people who think lowering taxes is good think so because they view the government as an inefficient, third-party spender and believe the money could be better spent more wisely elsewhere." People say that, but then they privatize functions of government, and if they're lucky, they end up with the same level of service. And then now there's a middleman involved who needs to get profit, meaning wages and service get cut.

toomanybeersies 8y ago

It doesn't seem like it's supposed to offset taxes, but rather to ease the financial burden of moving. There are more reasons other than taxation to consider moving. When I moved countries, I didn't even consider taxation when I moved. I make enough money that I'm comfortable, a couple of grand here and there isn't going to upset me. When I moved, it was for lifestyle reasons, which I think is the only sensible reason to move. If you're moving to Vermont to work remotely as an attempt at saving/earning more money, you're going to have a miserable time.

amichal 8y ago

High yes but 8.95% is the marginal rate for incomes over 413,350/yr. The median income (according to recent census data) is 57k/yr. On a 100k you would pay something like 5% to Vermont. $0 - $37,650 3.55% $37,650 - $91,150 6.80% $91,150 - $190,150 7.80% $190,150 - $413,350 8.80% $413,350+ 8.95% https://smartasset.com/taxes/vermont-tax-calculator https://smartasset.com/taxes/vermont-tax-calculator

kerkeslager 8y ago

Okay, but unlike the average denizen of HN, there are plenty of people who make decisions based on things other than money.

s73v3r_ 8y ago

Well, you can just look at Kansas to see what happens when you gut your taxes to where you can't actually pay for anything.

s2g 8y ago

Gee that seems so high. I do wonder why they only mentioned the tax rates for people making ~400k a year.

bonestamp2 8y ago

Not to mention, moving all the stuff in my house in 2015 cost a little over $30K. $10K is a nice gesture, but it wouldn't cover a whole household... 1-2 bedroom apartment maybe. That said, it's a beautiful state and if you want to work remotely and do a lot of skiing/hiking/etc then it could be a nice offset.