3 ms·

Pretty much every single being on this planet is playing social status game, all China did is put a number on it.

ekianjo 8y ago
A government issued number. Thats the key difference. In the real world you can move in the country and start anew somewhere else.
- pphysch 8y ago
  How is this functionally different than e.g. a criminal or financial record? If you can escape these, you can escape other government records.
  - txcwpalpha 8y ago
    To add to those examples: standardized test scores (like those for college admissions), education records (including collegiate degrees), health records, residency records, credit scores, driving records are all permanent records that are maintained by organizations that are either governmental or no better than a govt org. I'm not a fan of China's system either, but it's silly to act like it's something new. Nearly every citizen of any first world country has a huge set of permanent records being compiled on them, not just those in China.
    - briandear 8y ago
      My SAT score doesn’t dictate if I can board an airplane. My credit score doesn’t affect me getting a passport. Comparing China’s social credit system to US records is completely off base.
      - txcwpalpha 8y ago
        Your records certainly can affect you getting a passport. Depending on your criminal past, you may be banned from getting a passport. Similarly, some countries (Canada comes to mind) will ban you from entering the country for things as small as running a stop sign while driving. You can also be banned from getting a passport if you are behind on your taxes or child support payments. As for getting on a plane, all of the above apply too, as well as the fact that you can be barred from flying simply by having a certain last name. Your personal records also affect things like how easy it is for you to get through customs and airport security. Global Entry/TSA PreCheck, for example, will be completely off-limits to you if you have 'questionable' travel records in your past. Pretending the US/EU doesn't already have the Chinese social credit system in place is sticking your head in the sand. All China has done is formalize it.
- 8note 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure China is in the real world
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
tropdrop 8y ago
But in the Chinese system, your number goes down if someone you're friends with on social media makes a post that the Chinese government deems politically unsavory
- platinumrad 8y ago
  This is true in the west as well. Especially now in 2018, if someone you're even tangentially connected to does something deemed to be unsavory you are expected to immediately and forcefully disavow them or face the social consequences. Even then, you still may be tainted by association.
  - tropdrop 8y ago
    When uncle Joe in Utah posts a racist rant on Facebook, I don't get penalized. Even if he posts a political rant or conspiracy theory, I don't get penalized. I can and do still remain friends with him on this social media channel without consequence.
    - platinumrad 8y ago
      I've actually seen a lot of calls on social media to completely cut off racist family members in the last year. Could be a difference between our relative social circles. More generally, if you're Facebook friends with or a Twitter follower of someone of interest to the state security services, like a radical Islamic preacher for example, do you really not think that is being recorded somewhere?
    - 8note 8y ago
      racist uncle Joe doesn't get penalised either, so I don't think it's an apt comparison
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    "This is true in the west as well. Especially now in 2018, if someone you're even tangentially connected to does something deemed to be unsavory you are expected to immediately and forcefully disavow them or face the social consequences. Even then, you still may be tainted by association." No, this is generally not true. Unless you're a public figure and only then in specific circumstances. Almost nobody holds people accountable for what their friends do. Bill Clinton's brother was a drug dealer. Barak Obama's father was a kind of unsavoury deadbeat dad. I suppose both of them would have had nary enough 'social credit' to become President. Also - it's borderline shocking to hear a casual defence of this system. Theoretically yes, I can see a rhetorical argument, but in practice it's pretty scary. In America people do have 'credit scores' but that's generally a more open thing, and you still get to vote and ride the subway if you have low credit score.
l33tbro 8y ago
You don't think that trivialises the issue just a touch? We're talking about an institutionised score which effectively administers your social mobility.
- platinumrad 8y ago
  You're talking about SAT scores right? Or did you mean US credit scores, which are maintained by three opaque and unaccountable private corporations. More seriously, yes, the explicit social credit system that China seeks to establish is evil. But the west isn't much different.
  - pcr0 8y ago
    SAT scores decide where one can go for university. Credit scores decide interest rates and loan approvals. Social credit score decides whether one can board a plane or a train, or whether your child can get into a school of their choice. Furthermore, your score is influenced by the people you associate with, and vice-versa. One of those concepts is very different from the other, in practice.
    - vkou 8y ago
      > Credit scores decide interest rates and loan approvals. They decide a lot more then that. Housing, job applications, sentencing, whether or not you can get an education...
kizer 8y ago
???? So it's fine that one of the government's responsibilities is to track each citizens social score, instead of it being implicit in the judgement's of a person's peer-group? Yes we all play some kind of "status" or "reputation" game, but the difference is that we can determine ourselves what is socially right by finding the right audience. In China's case, your only choice of audience is the government. You are forced to play instead of being a willing participant in your relevant social stratum.

A government issued number. Thats the key difference. In the real world you can move in the country and start anew somewhere else.

pphysch 8y ago
How is this functionally different than e.g. a criminal or financial record? If you can escape these, you can escape other government records.
- txcwpalpha 8y ago
  To add to those examples: standardized test scores (like those for college admissions), education records (including collegiate degrees), health records, residency records, credit scores, driving records are all permanent records that are maintained by organizations that are either governmental or no better than a govt org. I'm not a fan of China's system either, but it's silly to act like it's something new. Nearly every citizen of any first world country has a huge set of permanent records being compiled on them, not just those in China.
  - briandear 8y ago
    My SAT score doesn’t dictate if I can board an airplane. My credit score doesn’t affect me getting a passport. Comparing China’s social credit system to US records is completely off base.
    - txcwpalpha 8y ago
      Your records certainly can affect you getting a passport. Depending on your criminal past, you may be banned from getting a passport. Similarly, some countries (Canada comes to mind) will ban you from entering the country for things as small as running a stop sign while driving. You can also be banned from getting a passport if you are behind on your taxes or child support payments. As for getting on a plane, all of the above apply too, as well as the fact that you can be barred from flying simply by having a certain last name. Your personal records also affect things like how easy it is for you to get through customs and airport security. Global Entry/TSA PreCheck, for example, will be completely off-limits to you if you have 'questionable' travel records in your past. Pretending the US/EU doesn't already have the Chinese social credit system in place is sticking your head in the sand. All China has done is formalize it.
8note 8y ago
I'm pretty sure China is in the real world

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

tropdrop 8y ago

But in the Chinese system, your number goes down if someone you're friends with on social media makes a post that the Chinese government deems politically unsavory

platinumrad 8y ago
This is true in the west as well. Especially now in 2018, if someone you're even tangentially connected to does something deemed to be unsavory you are expected to immediately and forcefully disavow them or face the social consequences. Even then, you still may be tainted by association.
- tropdrop 8y ago
  When uncle Joe in Utah posts a racist rant on Facebook, I don't get penalized. Even if he posts a political rant or conspiracy theory, I don't get penalized. I can and do still remain friends with him on this social media channel without consequence.
  - platinumrad 8y ago
    I've actually seen a lot of calls on social media to completely cut off racist family members in the last year. Could be a difference between our relative social circles. More generally, if you're Facebook friends with or a Twitter follower of someone of interest to the state security services, like a radical Islamic preacher for example, do you really not think that is being recorded somewhere?
  - 8note 8y ago
    racist uncle Joe doesn't get penalised either, so I don't think it's an apt comparison
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  "This is true in the west as well. Especially now in 2018, if someone you're even tangentially connected to does something deemed to be unsavory you are expected to immediately and forcefully disavow them or face the social consequences. Even then, you still may be tainted by association." No, this is generally not true. Unless you're a public figure and only then in specific circumstances. Almost nobody holds people accountable for what their friends do. Bill Clinton's brother was a drug dealer. Barak Obama's father was a kind of unsavoury deadbeat dad. I suppose both of them would have had nary enough 'social credit' to become President. Also - it's borderline shocking to hear a casual defence of this system. Theoretically yes, I can see a rhetorical argument, but in practice it's pretty scary. In America people do have 'credit scores' but that's generally a more open thing, and you still get to vote and ride the subway if you have low credit score.

l33tbro 8y ago

You don't think that trivialises the issue just a touch? We're talking about an institutionised score which effectively administers your social mobility.

platinumrad 8y ago
You're talking about SAT scores right? Or did you mean US credit scores, which are maintained by three opaque and unaccountable private corporations. More seriously, yes, the explicit social credit system that China seeks to establish is evil. But the west isn't much different.
- pcr0 8y ago
  SAT scores decide where one can go for university. Credit scores decide interest rates and loan approvals. Social credit score decides whether one can board a plane or a train, or whether your child can get into a school of their choice. Furthermore, your score is influenced by the people you associate with, and vice-versa. One of those concepts is very different from the other, in practice.
  - vkou 8y ago
    > Credit scores decide interest rates and loan approvals. They decide a lot more then that. Housing, job applications, sentencing, whether or not you can get an education...

kizer 8y ago

???? So it's fine that one of the government's responsibilities is to track each citizens social score, instead of it being implicit in the judgement's of a person's peer-group? Yes we all play some kind of "status" or "reputation" game, but the difference is that we can determine ourselves what is socially right by finding the right audience. In China's case, your only choice of audience is the government. You are forced to play instead of being a willing participant in your relevant social stratum.