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These are really excellent points I hadn’t considered. On the other hand, let’s run the experiment the other way. We currently have significant numbers of peop

These are really excellent points I hadn’t considered. On the other hand, let’s run the experiment the other way. We currently have significant numbers of people working with no hope of financial stability in their future. Will taxing them to fill the coffers of the rich improve their situation? Given the current situation of increasing wealth inequality seemingly exacerbating existing problems, I can’t imagine that this is a promising approach. Since UBI is essentially the most generalized form of a benefits program, I really have to hope that it works. If it doesn’t, that seems damning to other benefits programs which are inefficiently (and IMO ineffectively, due to perverse incentives) means-tested. If it doesn’t, and if anti-UBI is virtually axiomatically a bad idea, then I’m not sure what’s left.

ddingus 8y ago
Public Works, using the post office as a model. We really do need to be building a lot of stuff, and or fixing stuff we have already done. That work is a direct stimulus, can pay pretty well, and benefits everyone public and private alike. Additionally, the returns from it can pay down all of the expensive bombs and non returned items that we currently spend or have spent on. An example is the interstate highway project. Our current president once the toll that, which is really stupid, but similar kinds of projects will deliver similar kinds of returns. The interstate highway project is still paying us great dividends years and years after it was created. Last figure I knew was 6/8 maybe 10 times the dollar spent. The post office still getting a lot of bad press right now, is actually exemplary and its performance in return to the public. It is entirely self-funded, doesn't take any tax dollars at all, pays good wages, has a lot of value to the public, and the benefits are worth working there. Other self-funded public works could work the very same way. Those that use it pay for it, and we all will benefit from the economic development. An example might beat networks, another example might be first line Healthcare, there are many to choose from. One that I've been thinking about lately is energy. Well distributed public investments in energy of all forms, managed on a higher level through something like a post office, might really pay us off, and deliver a lot of options making energy competitive and well distributed. The key thing to understanding all of this is government has agency, it's for us, by us, and we need to employ it to our mutual good. Yes, this will compete with Private Industry, but they should be competed with, otherwise they'll accumulate wealth stuff in the bank, and complain about the lack of opportunities to invest and make returns. There's nothing wrong with any of that, but it's a stalemate. One we don't need. I knocked this out really quick on Google Voice. I apologize in advance if this is a bit of a mess. Hopefully the gist comes through.
- pmiller2 8y ago
  Are you saying that every $1 spent on UBI is expected to return $X > 1 and that $X > $Y (where $Y is the return on current social service programs)? If so, I would say [citation needed], but, if proven, that would be a great argument for UBI.
  - ddingus 8y ago
    I don't think UBI delivers much of a return at all, when compared to public works and more direct investment in the people. I do not mean the current social service programs. I mean new, improved ones, along with Public Works people building things of real value that will deliver real returns for very long periods of time. A very large UBI could. But there's no way that's ever going to happen.

ddingus 8y ago

Public Works, using the post office as a model. We really do need to be building a lot of stuff, and or fixing stuff we have already done. That work is a direct stimulus, can pay pretty well, and benefits everyone public and private alike. Additionally, the returns from it can pay down all of the expensive bombs and non returned items that we currently spend or have spent on. An example is the interstate highway project. Our current president once the toll that, which is really stupid, but similar kinds of projects will deliver similar kinds of returns. The interstate highway project is still paying us great dividends years and years after it was created. Last figure I knew was 6/8 maybe 10 times the dollar spent. The post office still getting a lot of bad press right now, is actually exemplary and its performance in return to the public. It is entirely self-funded, doesn't take any tax dollars at all, pays good wages, has a lot of value to the public, and the benefits are worth working there. Other self-funded public works could work the very same way. Those that use it pay for it, and we all will benefit from the economic development. An example might beat networks, another example might be first line Healthcare, there are many to choose from. One that I've been thinking about lately is energy. Well distributed public investments in energy of all forms, managed on a higher level through something like a post office, might really pay us off, and deliver a lot of options making energy competitive and well distributed. The key thing to understanding all of this is government has agency, it's for us, by us, and we need to employ it to our mutual good. Yes, this will compete with Private Industry, but they should be competed with, otherwise they'll accumulate wealth stuff in the bank, and complain about the lack of opportunities to invest and make returns. There's nothing wrong with any of that, but it's a stalemate. One we don't need. I knocked this out really quick on Google Voice. I apologize in advance if this is a bit of a mess. Hopefully the gist comes through.

pmiller2 8y ago
Are you saying that every $1 spent on UBI is expected to return $X > 1 and that $X > $Y (where $Y is the return on current social service programs)? If so, I would say [citation needed], but, if proven, that would be a great argument for UBI.
- ddingus 8y ago
  I don't think UBI delivers much of a return at all, when compared to public works and more direct investment in the people. I do not mean the current social service programs. I mean new, improved ones, along with Public Works people building things of real value that will deliver real returns for very long periods of time. A very large UBI could. But there's no way that's ever going to happen.