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True. I’m aware it goes both ways. So the reality is probably somewhere in the middle. How do you define “a lot more than it really should”? I am aware there a

by craigc 8y ago

True. I’m aware it goes both ways. So the reality is probably somewhere in the middle. How do you define “a lot more than it really should”? I am aware there are a lot of Bitcoin haters here, but i believe it is the purest form of sound money (other than perhaps gold, but that is also debatable). It can’t be counterfeited, it is deflationary with a maximum supply of 21 million, it is very costly to produce, it is divisible to 8 decimal places, it can be stored very cheaply. The mainstream media narrative goes to extremes to try to manipulate the public’s perception and scare them away from it, but I think it’s very difficult to say what the fair market value for one Bitcoin should be. I personally think it should be much higher than what it is priced at today.

omegaworks 8y ago
Some of the things you state are actually liabilities and some outright falsehoods. >It can’t be counterfeited, It can be double-spent, and the integrity of the transaction ledger is dependent on no one miner controlling over 51% of the compute on the network. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Irreversible_Transactions https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Irreversible_Transactions > it is deflationary It can not, therefore, represent an economy that expands in real value as it grows to include more people engaging in more trade. > it is very costly to produce The network presently costs the Earth as much energy as the entire energy usage of the country of Denmark. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/bitcoins-insane-energy-consumption-explained/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/bitcoins-insane-... And the network gets little real utility from this energy usage. A transaction can take "anywhere from 30 minutes to over 16 hours" to be recorded in the ledger. https://coincentral.com/how-long-do-bitcoin-transfers-take/ https://coincentral.com/how-long-do-bitcoin-transfers-take/ > it is divisible to 8 decimal places That there is a limit on the divisibility of a bitcoin makes its deflationary nature even more of a liability. >it can be stored very cheaply. Bitcoin has been stolen from marketplaces and web wallets with impunity. Even air-gapped storage is not invulnerable.
- craigc 8y ago
  > It can be double-spent Well aware of this fact, but it has never happened partially because Bitcoin is the largest and most secure blockchain. Regular currencies can be double spent too, but rely on trusted intermediaries to step in and reverse the fraudulent transactions. In a way that is part of what makes Bitcoin so remarkable. That you can transact without having to depend on intermediaries. > It can not, therefore, represent an economy that expands in real value as it grows to include more people engaging in more trade. No, the value is in the fact that what you hold represents a piece of a limited number of coins that will ever exist. Gold does not increase in value because people are actively spending it to purchase coffee. It is a hedge against inflation. As more US dollars enter the economy and are used for transactions, the value of a single dollar decreases. > The network presently costs the Earth as much energy as the entire energy usage of the country of Denmark. I am not going to defend the energy usage and say that that is good, but the energy usage is part of the reason the network is secure and why there hasn’t been a 51% attack. FWIW the traditional economy: banks, vaults, armored vehicles, money printing, etc uses up far more energy. I would also encourage you to watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T0OUIW89II https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T0OUIW89II. Bitcoin actually has the power to introduce innovations to produce cheaper, alternative energy due to mining competition. > A transaction can take "anywhere from 30 minutes to over 16 hours" to be recorded in the ledger. The lightning network solves this by creating payment channels off chain which can be processed and confirmed in less than a second. It is silly to criticize a software project for inefficiencies now that will be improved upon and changed in the future. > That there is a limit on the divisibility of a Bitcoin makes its deflationary nature even more of a liability. If the value of 1 satoshi (smallest divisible unit of a Bitcoin) were to get to $0.01 it would mean each Bitcoin would be worth $1 million. This problem also exists with gold, but it is even worse there. A gram of gold would cost around $40 right now, and it is not really possible to split it up much further than that. > Bitcoin has been stolen from marketplaces and web wallets with impunity. Even air-gapped storage is not invulnerable. Yes, but the fact that people are trying to steal it in the first place means that they think it is worth something. This is also true of any valuables. Jewelry, diamonds, gold, silver all can be stolen. Bitcoin can be stored in secure vaults or in your head.
  - boon 8y ago

by craigc 8y ago

omegaworks 8y ago

Some of the things you state are actually liabilities and some outright falsehoods. >It can’t be counterfeited, It can be double-spent, and the integrity of the transaction ledger is dependent on no one miner controlling over 51% of the compute on the network. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Irreversible_Transactions https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Irreversible_Transactions > it is deflationary It can not, therefore, represent an economy that expands in real value as it grows to include more people engaging in more trade. > it is very costly to produce The network presently costs the Earth as much energy as the entire energy usage of the country of Denmark. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/bitcoins-insane-energy-consumption-explained/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/bitcoins-insane-... And the network gets little real utility from this energy usage. A transaction can take "anywhere from 30 minutes to over 16 hours" to be recorded in the ledger. https://coincentral.com/how-long-do-bitcoin-transfers-take/ https://coincentral.com/how-long-do-bitcoin-transfers-take/ > it is divisible to 8 decimal places That there is a limit on the divisibility of a bitcoin makes its deflationary nature even more of a liability. >it can be stored very cheaply. Bitcoin has been stolen from marketplaces and web wallets with impunity. Even air-gapped storage is not invulnerable.

craigc 8y ago
> It can be double-spent Well aware of this fact, but it has never happened partially because Bitcoin is the largest and most secure blockchain. Regular currencies can be double spent too, but rely on trusted intermediaries to step in and reverse the fraudulent transactions. In a way that is part of what makes Bitcoin so remarkable. That you can transact without having to depend on intermediaries. > It can not, therefore, represent an economy that expands in real value as it grows to include more people engaging in more trade. No, the value is in the fact that what you hold represents a piece of a limited number of coins that will ever exist. Gold does not increase in value because people are actively spending it to purchase coffee. It is a hedge against inflation. As more US dollars enter the economy and are used for transactions, the value of a single dollar decreases. > The network presently costs the Earth as much energy as the entire energy usage of the country of Denmark. I am not going to defend the energy usage and say that that is good, but the energy usage is part of the reason the network is secure and why there hasn’t been a 51% attack. FWIW the traditional economy: banks, vaults, armored vehicles, money printing, etc uses up far more energy. I would also encourage you to watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T0OUIW89II https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T0OUIW89II. Bitcoin actually has the power to introduce innovations to produce cheaper, alternative energy due to mining competition. > A transaction can take "anywhere from 30 minutes to over 16 hours" to be recorded in the ledger. The lightning network solves this by creating payment channels off chain which can be processed and confirmed in less than a second. It is silly to criticize a software project for inefficiencies now that will be improved upon and changed in the future. > That there is a limit on the divisibility of a Bitcoin makes its deflationary nature even more of a liability. If the value of 1 satoshi (smallest divisible unit of a Bitcoin) were to get to $0.01 it would mean each Bitcoin would be worth $1 million. This problem also exists with gold, but it is even worse there. A gram of gold would cost around $40 right now, and it is not really possible to split it up much further than that. > Bitcoin has been stolen from marketplaces and web wallets with impunity. Even air-gapped storage is not invulnerable. Yes, but the fact that people are trying to steal it in the first place means that they think it is worth something. This is also true of any valuables. Jewelry, diamonds, gold, silver all can be stolen. Bitcoin can be stored in secure vaults or in your head.
- boon 8y ago