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I really dislike agile. A product owner asked me once if I get some benefit from them...and no, I don't. Thry get a lot of benefit from me sharing what I'm doin

I really dislike agile. A product owner asked me once if I get some benefit from them...and no, I don't. Thry get a lot of benefit from me sharing what I'm doing because they can then keep track of it and communicate it to other people, but I don't get any benefit personally. I want to be the guy who talks to the rest of the employees, implements things and get direct feedback from them. I dont want anyone in the middle of that. It just complicates everything and makes me less connected and known in the company.

vannevar 8y ago
I want to be the guy who talks to the rest of the employees, implements things and get direct feedback from them. How exactly does agile prevent you from talking to your teammates and getting feedback from them?
- betenoire 8y ago
  If I have a full and well-groomed backlog waiting for me at my desk, what's there to talk about? Sure, you can, but the the whole point of the PM is to take that off your shoulders and the parent is saying he doesn't want that lifted from him.
  - vannevar 8y ago
    A well-groomed backlog is not working code. So I don't get how that somehow means there's nothing to talk about. If there's an agile MVP, it's "write some working code, get feedback on it, then repeat until everyone's happy within some tolerance." Scrum is designed to increase feedback, but it's a floor, not a ceiling.
    - betenoire 8y ago
      Sure, but the PM is there for a reason and the PM has roles. There is overlap with what developers can be doing, but we are trained/encouraged to punt to the PM for such decisions, questions, and suggestions. I get it, but it's now how I do my best work, proxying questions and discussions through a gatekeeper.
      - vannevar 8y ago
        We do agile, but also use Slack and email, and walking across the room. If your organization is actively discouraging communication within the team unless it goes through the PM, that's bizarre. On the other hand, if the PM is acting as a gatekeeper with customers, that's not unusual. The reality is that you can't have everyone on the team talking directly to the customer, for a whole host of good reasons. Regarding decision-making, that can be a problem---some PMs and product owners are micromanagers, hamstringing their team. But they would be micro managers with or without agile.
      - majormajor 8y ago
        IME the PM works best when acting as a shield from random questions or future things or other not-important-this-instant distractions, but shouldn't block direct clarifying questions or feedback from you to a stakeholder. I'd keep them in the loop, but the ones I've worked with haven't wanted to just be a glorified "I deal with the goddamn customers so the engineers don't have to!" middleman for basic things like that.
        alexchamberlain 8y ago
        As a tech lead in a Scrum team, this shield causes more problems than it solves in my experience. We often get questions missing context or find out about a decision too late to provide meaningful input on a technical level.
- some_account 8y ago
  Team mates are the ones I'm working with all the time. I don't need scrum processes to talk to my team. A good team knows how and when to share information.
  - geezerjay 8y ago
    > Team mates are the ones I'm working with all the time. I don't need scrum processes to talk to my team. A good team knows how and when to share information. Scrum processes are just a way to ensure that no stakeholder, including team members, is left out of those talks, left in the dark, or left unheard. Having a clique single-handedly and unilaterally dictating changes without communicating them or listening to any stakeholder doesn't serve anyone's interests. That's how projects fail.
  - vannevar 8y ago
    A good team knows how and when to share information. True. Scrum is a floor, not a ceiling. Nothing prevents the team from going above and beyond the daily standup and the sprint review in terms of communication, and I've never been on a team that didn't communicate a lot more than that. But doing that standup every day ensures that there is at least a minimum of communication, every day.
- decode 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure that when he says "the rest of the employees" he means what Scrum calls stakeholders, not members of the development team.
srtjstjsj 8y ago
Why haven't you told your manager that you are willing to do your job plus the product owner's job for only your pay plus half the product owner's pay?
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  Because that just doesn't work. It sounds clever, but in reality, it would get you laughed out of the office. And then the PO finds out that you offered to get him fired, and now the working relationship is ruined.
jon-wood 8y ago
For a long time I felt that way as well. There are days when I still do, and this is from my current perspective as a tech lead who spends ~50% of their time in meetings with other parts of the company. Sadly once a team scales up past a certain size its not practical to have developers also going out, finding out what people want built, and handling all the feedback on that. You need someone (or a team of someones) gathering the often conflicting requests coming in, and prioritising them against each other. Having said that, I do believe once a piece of work makes it to a point where people are likely to start working on it the developers who will be doing that work should be involved in the process. They should understand not only what is being requested, but also why its being requested, in my experience that often results in them suggesting alternative solutions that either bet solve the problem, or provide a 90% solution with significantly less cost. It also gives them the context needed when deciding on technical trade-offs involved in different design choices.
gregmac 8y ago
I want to be the guy who talks to the rest of the employees, implements things and get direct feedback from them. I dont want anyone in the middle of that. Part of little-a agile is making changes and adapting -- it's literally in the name. If you have a process in place that prevents you talking to the people you need to talk to, change or delete the process.
maxxxxx 8y ago
"I want to be the guy who talks to the rest of the employees, implements things and get direct feedback from them" I am the same way. I much prefer talking to users directly and come up with a solution instead of having a middle man. But I have noticed that a lot of devs much prefer somebody filtering things for them. I guess to each his own...

vannevar 8y ago

I want to be the guy who talks to the rest of the employees, implements things and get direct feedback from them. How exactly does agile prevent you from talking to your teammates and getting feedback from them?

betenoire 8y ago
If I have a full and well-groomed backlog waiting for me at my desk, what's there to talk about? Sure, you can, but the the whole point of the PM is to take that off your shoulders and the parent is saying he doesn't want that lifted from him.
- vannevar 8y ago
  A well-groomed backlog is not working code. So I don't get how that somehow means there's nothing to talk about. If there's an agile MVP, it's "write some working code, get feedback on it, then repeat until everyone's happy within some tolerance." Scrum is designed to increase feedback, but it's a floor, not a ceiling.
  - betenoire 8y ago
    Sure, but the PM is there for a reason and the PM has roles. There is overlap with what developers can be doing, but we are trained/encouraged to punt to the PM for such decisions, questions, and suggestions. I get it, but it's now how I do my best work, proxying questions and discussions through a gatekeeper.
    - vannevar 8y ago
      We do agile, but also use Slack and email, and walking across the room. If your organization is actively discouraging communication within the team unless it goes through the PM, that's bizarre. On the other hand, if the PM is acting as a gatekeeper with customers, that's not unusual. The reality is that you can't have everyone on the team talking directly to the customer, for a whole host of good reasons. Regarding decision-making, that can be a problem---some PMs and product owners are micromanagers, hamstringing their team. But they would be micro managers with or without agile.
    - majormajor 8y ago
      IME the PM works best when acting as a shield from random questions or future things or other not-important-this-instant distractions, but shouldn't block direct clarifying questions or feedback from you to a stakeholder. I'd keep them in the loop, but the ones I've worked with haven't wanted to just be a glorified "I deal with the goddamn customers so the engineers don't have to!" middleman for basic things like that.
      - alexchamberlain 8y ago
        As a tech lead in a Scrum team, this shield causes more problems than it solves in my experience. We often get questions missing context or find out about a decision too late to provide meaningful input on a technical level.
some_account 8y ago
Team mates are the ones I'm working with all the time. I don't need scrum processes to talk to my team. A good team knows how and when to share information.
- geezerjay 8y ago
  > Team mates are the ones I'm working with all the time. I don't need scrum processes to talk to my team. A good team knows how and when to share information. Scrum processes are just a way to ensure that no stakeholder, including team members, is left out of those talks, left in the dark, or left unheard. Having a clique single-handedly and unilaterally dictating changes without communicating them or listening to any stakeholder doesn't serve anyone's interests. That's how projects fail.
- vannevar 8y ago
  A good team knows how and when to share information. True. Scrum is a floor, not a ceiling. Nothing prevents the team from going above and beyond the daily standup and the sprint review in terms of communication, and I've never been on a team that didn't communicate a lot more than that. But doing that standup every day ensures that there is at least a minimum of communication, every day.
decode 8y ago
I'm pretty sure that when he says "the rest of the employees" he means what Scrum calls stakeholders, not members of the development team.

srtjstjsj 8y ago

Why haven't you told your manager that you are willing to do your job plus the product owner's job for only your pay plus half the product owner's pay?

s73v3r_ 8y ago
Because that just doesn't work. It sounds clever, but in reality, it would get you laughed out of the office. And then the PO finds out that you offered to get him fired, and now the working relationship is ruined.

jon-wood 8y ago

For a long time I felt that way as well. There are days when I still do, and this is from my current perspective as a tech lead who spends ~50% of their time in meetings with other parts of the company. Sadly once a team scales up past a certain size its not practical to have developers also going out, finding out what people want built, and handling all the feedback on that. You need someone (or a team of someones) gathering the often conflicting requests coming in, and prioritising them against each other. Having said that, I do believe once a piece of work makes it to a point where people are likely to start working on it the developers who will be doing that work should be involved in the process. They should understand not only what is being requested, but also why its being requested, in my experience that often results in them suggesting alternative solutions that either bet solve the problem, or provide a 90% solution with significantly less cost. It also gives them the context needed when deciding on technical trade-offs involved in different design choices.

gregmac 8y ago

I want to be the guy who talks to the rest of the employees, implements things and get direct feedback from them. I dont want anyone in the middle of that. Part of little-a agile is making changes and adapting -- it's literally in the name. If you have a process in place that prevents you talking to the people you need to talk to, change or delete the process.

maxxxxx 8y ago

"I want to be the guy who talks to the rest of the employees, implements things and get direct feedback from them" I am the same way. I much prefer talking to users directly and come up with a solution instead of having a middle man. But I have noticed that a lot of devs much prefer somebody filtering things for them. I guess to each his own...