44 ms·

But you have to include 'estimates', which ruins everything (in non-trivial cases, yadda, yadda).

by rch 8y ago

specialist 8y ago
Estimating is my Achilles heel. Always has been. I'm way too optimistic. My workaround was to do jelly bean estimating. Get guesses from everyone, then use the average. Worked surprisingly well. We did other things to meet that target date, honor that estimate, of course. But that's a longer story.
- commandlinefan 8y ago
  > I'm too optimistic Have you ever thought much about why, though? When I was young, I was super optimistic - and I got burned by all of the surprises (including the underspecified or unstated requirements), so I started to estimate pessimistically based on experience. But then I got stuck in this loop: "How long will this take?" "Probably two weeks" "What? Why two weeks? Why not two days? We only have two days. Say it will only take two days, or tell me everything you're going to be doing on an hour-by-hour basis to justify this high estimate!" So now I've just gotten really good at figuring out how long they want me to say it will take, say it will take that long, and shrug my shoulders when it takes longer. Since everybody else is doing the same thing (as they don't have any choice), it doesn't surprise anybody.
  - specialist 8y ago
    I have thought about it. A lot. I'm told I work too slow, dive too deep. Now I'm trying to figure out how to do just 80%, "good enough". When I was a kid, I published shareware. After getting a few 3:00am wake up calls from irate customers, I said "never again". I spent 15 years designing, engineering away technical support calls. It mostly worked. Later on... When my team(s) burned a CD, we rarely had to issue patches, hot fixes. Customers loved us. I thought that was the pinnacle of human achievement. Now, I feel like I'm still fighting battles over things no one cares about any more.
    - bradstewart 8y ago
      This. Figuring out how to stop at 80% is a skill I'm struggling to learn. And I don't mean "learn to half-ass things"; in the vast majority of cases 80% is more than good enough to get the job done.
    - lmm 8y ago
      Customers may talk about hating bugs, but when you ask them to put their money where their mouth is, 95% of the time they'll buy buggier software with more features.
- nickelcitymario 8y ago
  > Estimating is my Achilles heel. Always has been. I'm way too optimistic. That's kinda the whole point. Everyone sucks at estimating. Scrum proposes a way to do "what greybeards call project management" in a way that deals with this universal inability.
  - specialist 8y ago
    I'm having trouble articulating this, please forgive: I didn't explain "the other stuff" for why jelly bean estimating works. The number doesn't matter. It's the shared hallucination (consensus) for the deadline. It short circuited, resolved the debate about "how long". It secures the team buy-in. Once we had a deadline, we managed the work to match. Closest analog I can think of is Kickstarter: initial goal and stretch goals. We had the must haves (stuff listed in the draft press release). We also had dozens of nice to haves we'd sneak in, time permitting. Agile, Scrum, sprint style estimating is too fine grained, the horizon too near, to do effective estimating.
- consp 8y ago
  What I've learned in engineering (any form, including software) is take the estimate (acquired in any decent enough way like averaging) and multiply by PI (or 3 if that suits you) to get a reasonable amount. In practice it works more accurately for larger sums than smaller ones so your mileage may vary. I guess it is easier for everyone to guess smaller workloads more accurately. In my practical experience, I multiply the amount gathered from the previous statement by two to have sufficient negotiation space for people 'higher up the chain' who have no idea about anything of this and simply pull estimates out of thin air or their rear without any proper experience except "previous time it was xxx so it should be the same" (which it almost always is not). edit: I prefer to have some time left on larger projects to avoid overrunning, even though that might be common practice. Usually though time is cut short due to delivery constraints or selling a product before asking the development and you get the 'wasn't it done yet?' speech.
  - knightofmars 8y ago
    Here is the "chart" that I use when determining how accurate an engineer's estimate will be. The left column is the hour estimate to look up the volatility from. The right column represents the potential volatility (probability of increasing in time) of the work item based on the hour estimate. Hour Estimate : Volatility Level 1 - 5 : Little to no volatility. 5 - 15 : Small volatility (a day, maybe two). 15 - 30 : Medium volatility (multiple days). 30 - 60 : Medium to High volatility (days to weeks). 60+ : High volatility (multiple weeks). The reason behind this chart is that when determining what goes into a release there is a tendency to treat all items as static in size. What I mean is that most people will say, "Three 15 hour work items are equal to one 45 hour work item." or "Six 5 hour work items are equal to one 30 hour work item." The worst offender, "Four 15 hour work items are equal to one 60 hour work item." Additionally, as a work item increases in size the amount of "knowable things" increases as well. Of those "knowable things" there are many known knowns, known unknowns, unknown unknowns (thank you DR for that gem). There's a near 0% chance that a team will get all of the requirements in place up front on a 60 hour case. If a scoping team is told that they have 240 available hours to work with, then they will pick a combination of items that fit within the 240 hour box. If they have four high priority 60 hour estimate items then they may pick all four for the release. In the event that four 60 hour items are chosen I would place a near 100% guarantee that the release will not go out within the 240 hour time frame. I would even wager that will be up to four weeks late.
- srtjstjsj 8y ago
  Nothing protects against toxic management. "Evidence Based Scheduling" https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2007/10/26/evidence-based-scheduling/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2007/10/26/evidence-based-sch...
- stronglikedan 8y ago
  I go one step further: Get guesses from everyone, then use the average multiplied by 3. That lets management talk me down by 1/3rd so they feel they've won something, and I still end up with a little wiggle room.
emodendroket 8y ago
Everyone tacitly assigns a time value to "points" anyway.
- brazzy 8y ago
  Which is fine. The point (heh) is that the mapping can be adjusted in a feedback loop based on what you actually did in the past.
  - emodendroket 8y ago
    I've always seen there being a maximum size of a ticket for one sprint. So effectively 8, or, 13, or 21, or whatever, is two weeks, and all the other sizes are some fraction of that, and you end up trying to calibrate how you vote for points based on how long things take.

But you have to include 'estimates', which ruins everything (in non-trivial cases, yadda, yadda).

by rch 8y ago

But you have to include 'estimates', which ruins everything (in non-trivial cases, yadda, yadda).

Estimating is my Achilles heel. Always has been. I'm way too optimistic. My workaround was to do jelly bean estimating. Get guesses from everyone, then use the average. Worked surprisingly well. We did other things to meet that target date, honor that estimate, of course. But that's a longer story.

commandlinefan 8y ago
> I'm too optimistic Have you ever thought much about why, though? When I was young, I was super optimistic - and I got burned by all of the surprises (including the underspecified or unstated requirements), so I started to estimate pessimistically based on experience. But then I got stuck in this loop: "How long will this take?" "Probably two weeks" "What? Why two weeks? Why not two days? We only have two days. Say it will only take two days, or tell me everything you're going to be doing on an hour-by-hour basis to justify this high estimate!" So now I've just gotten really good at figuring out how long they want me to say it will take, say it will take that long, and shrug my shoulders when it takes longer. Since everybody else is doing the same thing (as they don't have any choice), it doesn't surprise anybody.
- specialist 8y ago
  I have thought about it. A lot. I'm told I work too slow, dive too deep. Now I'm trying to figure out how to do just 80%, "good enough". When I was a kid, I published shareware. After getting a few 3:00am wake up calls from irate customers, I said "never again". I spent 15 years designing, engineering away technical support calls. It mostly worked. Later on... When my team(s) burned a CD, we rarely had to issue patches, hot fixes. Customers loved us. I thought that was the pinnacle of human achievement. Now, I feel like I'm still fighting battles over things no one cares about any more.
  - bradstewart 8y ago
    This. Figuring out how to stop at 80% is a skill I'm struggling to learn. And I don't mean "learn to half-ass things"; in the vast majority of cases 80% is more than good enough to get the job done.
  - lmm 8y ago
    Customers may talk about hating bugs, but when you ask them to put their money where their mouth is, 95% of the time they'll buy buggier software with more features.
nickelcitymario 8y ago
> Estimating is my Achilles heel. Always has been. I'm way too optimistic. That's kinda the whole point. Everyone sucks at estimating. Scrum proposes a way to do "what greybeards call project management" in a way that deals with this universal inability.
- specialist 8y ago
  I'm having trouble articulating this, please forgive: I didn't explain "the other stuff" for why jelly bean estimating works. The number doesn't matter. It's the shared hallucination (consensus) for the deadline. It short circuited, resolved the debate about "how long". It secures the team buy-in. Once we had a deadline, we managed the work to match. Closest analog I can think of is Kickstarter: initial goal and stretch goals. We had the must haves (stuff listed in the draft press release). We also had dozens of nice to haves we'd sneak in, time permitting. Agile, Scrum, sprint style estimating is too fine grained, the horizon too near, to do effective estimating.
consp 8y ago
What I've learned in engineering (any form, including software) is take the estimate (acquired in any decent enough way like averaging) and multiply by PI (or 3 if that suits you) to get a reasonable amount. In practice it works more accurately for larger sums than smaller ones so your mileage may vary. I guess it is easier for everyone to guess smaller workloads more accurately. In my practical experience, I multiply the amount gathered from the previous statement by two to have sufficient negotiation space for people 'higher up the chain' who have no idea about anything of this and simply pull estimates out of thin air or their rear without any proper experience except "previous time it was xxx so it should be the same" (which it almost always is not). edit: I prefer to have some time left on larger projects to avoid overrunning, even though that might be common practice. Usually though time is cut short due to delivery constraints or selling a product before asking the development and you get the 'wasn't it done yet?' speech.
- knightofmars 8y ago
  Here is the "chart" that I use when determining how accurate an engineer's estimate will be. The left column is the hour estimate to look up the volatility from. The right column represents the potential volatility (probability of increasing in time) of the work item based on the hour estimate. Hour Estimate : Volatility Level 1 - 5 : Little to no volatility. 5 - 15 : Small volatility (a day, maybe two). 15 - 30 : Medium volatility (multiple days). 30 - 60 : Medium to High volatility (days to weeks). 60+ : High volatility (multiple weeks). The reason behind this chart is that when determining what goes into a release there is a tendency to treat all items as static in size. What I mean is that most people will say, "Three 15 hour work items are equal to one 45 hour work item." or "Six 5 hour work items are equal to one 30 hour work item." The worst offender, "Four 15 hour work items are equal to one 60 hour work item." Additionally, as a work item increases in size the amount of "knowable things" increases as well. Of those "knowable things" there are many known knowns, known unknowns, unknown unknowns (thank you DR for that gem). There's a near 0% chance that a team will get all of the requirements in place up front on a 60 hour case. If a scoping team is told that they have 240 available hours to work with, then they will pick a combination of items that fit within the 240 hour box. If they have four high priority 60 hour estimate items then they may pick all four for the release. In the event that four 60 hour items are chosen I would place a near 100% guarantee that the release will not go out within the 240 hour time frame. I would even wager that will be up to four weeks late.
srtjstjsj 8y ago
Nothing protects against toxic management. "Evidence Based Scheduling" https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2007/10/26/evidence-based-scheduling/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2007/10/26/evidence-based-sch...
stronglikedan 8y ago
I go one step further: Get guesses from everyone, then use the average multiplied by 3. That lets management talk me down by 1/3rd so they feel they've won something, and I still end up with a little wiggle room.

emodendroket 8y ago

Everyone tacitly assigns a time value to "points" anyway.

brazzy 8y ago
Which is fine. The point (heh) is that the mapping can be adjusted in a feedback loop based on what you actually did in the past.
- emodendroket 8y ago
  I've always seen there being a maximum size of a ticket for one sprint. So effectively 8, or, 13, or 21, or whatever, is two weeks, and all the other sizes are some fraction of that, and you end up trying to calibrate how you vote for points based on how long things take.