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Open-source desktops are never perfect for anyone, but everyone expects them to be. For everyone who says they are too bloated, someone else says they are too s

Open-source desktops are never perfect for anyone, but everyone expects them to be. For everyone who says they are too bloated, someone else says they are too spartan. That's probably why there are so many of them. I would expect working on Gnome (or KDE or Cinnamon or Mate or XFCE or LXDE, the list goes on) to be a thankless task. You try to please everybody and yet please nobody. The imperfections of Linux desktops are more grating because of the knowledge that alternatives exist. On Windows or Mac OS, you are stuck with the desktop you have, with little ability to do anything other than basic customizations. But people soldier on and get used to it because they have no choice. I wonder whose users are truly more satisfied in the end.

pjmlp 8y ago
And UI/UX designers work happily and feel welcome on Windows and Mac OS systems, which are what everyone non-technical buys anyway.
- chriswarbo 8y ago
  > UI/UX designers work happily and feel welcome on Windows and Mac OS systems Could you elaborate on what you mean by "feel welcome"? AFAIK neither of those systems is open to contributors: if a UI/UX designer wanted to improve some aspect of the design, they're either limited to whatever config/theming the company decided to allow, or they must go and convince the company of their idea (especially sales, marketing, etc.), sign NDAs if they want to see/fix any of the implementation details, and so on. With FOSS they could just post to a mailing list or something, which I would imagine is more welcoming. Maybe the difficulty is social: FOSS projects certainly suffer from toxicity, but their transparent processes also make it more visible. Companies are better able to hide toxicity using firewalls and private/internal communication channels.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Toxicity, tooling and commercial ideas regarding IP. In Windows and macOS systems, and even on Google platforms, you go to a conference, there is a wealthy set of talks and discussion forums about UI/UX ideas. We just get to use Sketch, XD, Photoshop, whatever gets the job done to transmit the ideas and how users interact with the platforms. On UNIX world, or what is left of it BSD/Linux, GNOME and KDE designers get bashed and something like xmonad is considered the epitome of GUI experience. A similar conference will be about filesystems, network protocols, graphics drivers, kernel modules and very seldom about anything UI/UX related. So the designers that still try to contribute to GNOME and KDE apps do so in spite of community, because they believe that they can still make a difference. Everyone else just moves into places where they feel welcome. I am still wondering how long elementary OS is going to be around.
    - ahartmetz 8y ago
      Not true for KDE. We (the developers) like the UI/UX people. The main criticism from users seems to be that KDE UI isn't polished enough, which is not exactly sending away those who want to improve it.
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        True, I was speaking about the desktop users, not GNOME and KDE developers.
    - chriswarbo 8y ago
      As a happy XMonad user I can certainly appreciate that it's not for everyone ;)
  - magduf 8y ago
    If a project is too toxic, there's nothing stopping you from forking it and making your own version. Just look at Cinnamon and MATE. Can't do that with commercial software.
forkerenok 8y ago
I think you are spot on with your later point about availability of choice making people less happy/productive. I myself do jump from one DE to another every other year. But that's more out of curiosity.
Brometheus 8y ago
I tried to switch to Linux for philosophical and customization reasons. Found it nearly impossible to configure stuff reliably and such it wont crash in new interesting ways. For example: Create a new keyboard layout and have it appear in KDE keyboard settings. Good luck. Input Manager for macOS: done.
- foepys 8y ago
  But then try to get the shoulder buttons of a Logitech MX518 to work in the web browser on Mac OS X. That's a task that might take hours. Or try to let the Home and End keys of an external keyboard behave the same way in the terminal and in any other UI text box. There's a lot of configuration required.
- finchisko 8y ago
  It's interesting how different people can have completely opposite experience. I've modified my Microsoft keyboard that zoom slider works as Spotify control buttons play/stop/next. I doubt I would be able to achieve something like this in macOS or Windows. It works all the time, super reliably. https://gist.github.com/mauron85/5f4b640aa4e5e968e0496ac5a0878715 https://gist.github.com/mauron85/5f4b640aa4e5e968e0496ac5a08...
  - Shoue 8y ago
    You can probably use Autohotkey to achieve the same thing on Windows. It's a great tool to be aware of should you ever have to use Windows for any reason – you can also use it to push windows to virtual desktops and others, approaching a more Linux-y experience. Someone even wrote a tiling WM in AHK: https://github.com/fuhsjr00/bug.n https://github.com/fuhsjr00/bug.n
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      AHK is the kind of thing that should have been built into desktop environments since '95. Why go through the trouble of adding all these workflow features that may or may not align with what actually makes the user's workflow better when you could add a scripting environment that allows the user to do that for themselves and a few pre-configured defaults.
MikkoFinell 8y ago
I'm satisfied with Cinnamon. If any dev happens to read this: thank you and keep up the good work, it's appreciated.
- maurom 8y ago
  Ditto. Linux Desktop user since 9x (Red Hat, Conectiva, Mandrake, Debian). I've used IceWM, KDEv1, Gnome2, XFCE, KDEv3, Gnome3, KDEv4, Mate, LXDE, LXQT, usually switched yearly. Started using Cinnamon on Debian since 2017 and -so far- never looked back [1]. Cinnamon devs: Thank you! [1] https://maurom.com/blog/2017/07/04/ https://maurom.com/blog/2017/07/04/
flukus 8y ago
> For everyone who says they are too bloated, someone else says they are too spartan. Sometimes it can even be the same person depending on their needs. On my coding laptop I swear by i3, it's fast, simple and powerful. Everything is just a keystroke away. On my entertainment machine though (TV, music and games) I find gnome much better because friends can use it and these tasks are better handled with a mouse. This is the fundamental problem with convergence as well, different devices have different use cases and you can't make one person happy all the time.
- gcthomas 8y ago
  Yes, spartan and effective I3 for work, and shiny Gnome for the family machine. There is never only going to be one best solution, as that depends critically on the problem you are trying to solve.
- zrobotics 8y ago
  For an entertainment machine, I'd suggest installing Steam and auto-launching to big picture. Very easy to navigate from a couch w/ a controller, and you can use it for nearly any media task you want. It does take some time to configure your media directories, but not having to deal w/ a mouse on a media machine is so much easier. Plus, since your base OS can be something like Debian, remoting into the machine for administration is eminintely doable.
chriswarbo 8y ago
I think the problem is that being installed by default on a popular distro is a double-edged sword: on one hand there are more users, which means more bug reports, potentially more contributions and maintainers, etc. but on the other hand there will be more complaints from people who don't actually want to use it. As long as something is an "alternative" rather than common/default, its users will mostly be self-selected because they specifically went out of their way to use it.
stinos 8y ago
Open-source desktops are never perfect for anyone, but everyone expects them to be Isn't the same true for closed-source desktops? I mean, how on earth could any software be perfect for everyone?
JepZ 8y ago
I am pretty happy with my KDE desktop. The strength of KDE/Plasma is it extreme ability to be customized to the users needs. Nevertheless, KDE itself comes with a set of background services too, which some users might find bloated. I think nowadays its just a matter using what fits your needs. The only thing that nobody is perfect at is 'settings' as they mostly focus on desktop specific settings and many users don't know where to find more advanced settings (e.g. /etc).
yAnonymous 8y ago
The problem with Gnome is not that it's too bloated or spartan -although it does use twice as much memory as KDE and four times as much as LXDE- but that many parts of the UX are plain stupid.
- raverbashing 8y ago
  I share this opinion. It's "trying to be Mac OSX simple" (but failing)
robocat 8y ago
> Open-source desktops are never perfect for anyone, but everyone expects them to be Oppositely, if I haven't paid anything I am happy to put up with quite some grief. Just knowing you could fix it if you wanted to spend the time has value for me too. However using MacOS makes me very sad: paying $1000 for the privilege of bugs and user interface flaws galls me. I have quite low expectations of Windows too, but that is (a) historical expectations and (b) I don't expect much from a now advertising-based OS. [Aside: I just wish Microsoft would charge me a subscription for a professional version that didn't have crapware and adverts].

pjmlp 8y ago

And UI/UX designers work happily and feel welcome on Windows and Mac OS systems, which are what everyone non-technical buys anyway.

chriswarbo 8y ago
> UI/UX designers work happily and feel welcome on Windows and Mac OS systems Could you elaborate on what you mean by "feel welcome"? AFAIK neither of those systems is open to contributors: if a UI/UX designer wanted to improve some aspect of the design, they're either limited to whatever config/theming the company decided to allow, or they must go and convince the company of their idea (especially sales, marketing, etc.), sign NDAs if they want to see/fix any of the implementation details, and so on. With FOSS they could just post to a mailing list or something, which I would imagine is more welcoming. Maybe the difficulty is social: FOSS projects certainly suffer from toxicity, but their transparent processes also make it more visible. Companies are better able to hide toxicity using firewalls and private/internal communication channels.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Toxicity, tooling and commercial ideas regarding IP. In Windows and macOS systems, and even on Google platforms, you go to a conference, there is a wealthy set of talks and discussion forums about UI/UX ideas. We just get to use Sketch, XD, Photoshop, whatever gets the job done to transmit the ideas and how users interact with the platforms. On UNIX world, or what is left of it BSD/Linux, GNOME and KDE designers get bashed and something like xmonad is considered the epitome of GUI experience. A similar conference will be about filesystems, network protocols, graphics drivers, kernel modules and very seldom about anything UI/UX related. So the designers that still try to contribute to GNOME and KDE apps do so in spite of community, because they believe that they can still make a difference. Everyone else just moves into places where they feel welcome. I am still wondering how long elementary OS is going to be around.
  - ahartmetz 8y ago
    Not true for KDE. We (the developers) like the UI/UX people. The main criticism from users seems to be that KDE UI isn't polished enough, which is not exactly sending away those who want to improve it.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      True, I was speaking about the desktop users, not GNOME and KDE developers.
  - chriswarbo 8y ago
    As a happy XMonad user I can certainly appreciate that it's not for everyone ;)
- magduf 8y ago
  If a project is too toxic, there's nothing stopping you from forking it and making your own version. Just look at Cinnamon and MATE. Can't do that with commercial software.

forkerenok 8y ago

I think you are spot on with your later point about availability of choice making people less happy/productive. I myself do jump from one DE to another every other year. But that's more out of curiosity.

Brometheus 8y ago

I tried to switch to Linux for philosophical and customization reasons. Found it nearly impossible to configure stuff reliably and such it wont crash in new interesting ways. For example: Create a new keyboard layout and have it appear in KDE keyboard settings. Good luck. Input Manager for macOS: done.

foepys 8y ago
But then try to get the shoulder buttons of a Logitech MX518 to work in the web browser on Mac OS X. That's a task that might take hours. Or try to let the Home and End keys of an external keyboard behave the same way in the terminal and in any other UI text box. There's a lot of configuration required.
finchisko 8y ago
It's interesting how different people can have completely opposite experience. I've modified my Microsoft keyboard that zoom slider works as Spotify control buttons play/stop/next. I doubt I would be able to achieve something like this in macOS or Windows. It works all the time, super reliably. https://gist.github.com/mauron85/5f4b640aa4e5e968e0496ac5a0878715 https://gist.github.com/mauron85/5f4b640aa4e5e968e0496ac5a08...
- Shoue 8y ago
  You can probably use Autohotkey to achieve the same thing on Windows. It's a great tool to be aware of should you ever have to use Windows for any reason – you can also use it to push windows to virtual desktops and others, approaching a more Linux-y experience. Someone even wrote a tiling WM in AHK: https://github.com/fuhsjr00/bug.n https://github.com/fuhsjr00/bug.n
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    AHK is the kind of thing that should have been built into desktop environments since '95. Why go through the trouble of adding all these workflow features that may or may not align with what actually makes the user's workflow better when you could add a scripting environment that allows the user to do that for themselves and a few pre-configured defaults.

MikkoFinell 8y ago

I'm satisfied with Cinnamon. If any dev happens to read this: thank you and keep up the good work, it's appreciated.

maurom 8y ago
Ditto. Linux Desktop user since 9x (Red Hat, Conectiva, Mandrake, Debian). I've used IceWM, KDEv1, Gnome2, XFCE, KDEv3, Gnome3, KDEv4, Mate, LXDE, LXQT, usually switched yearly. Started using Cinnamon on Debian since 2017 and -so far- never looked back [1]. Cinnamon devs: Thank you! [1] https://maurom.com/blog/2017/07/04/ https://maurom.com/blog/2017/07/04/

flukus 8y ago

> For everyone who says they are too bloated, someone else says they are too spartan. Sometimes it can even be the same person depending on their needs. On my coding laptop I swear by i3, it's fast, simple and powerful. Everything is just a keystroke away. On my entertainment machine though (TV, music and games) I find gnome much better because friends can use it and these tasks are better handled with a mouse. This is the fundamental problem with convergence as well, different devices have different use cases and you can't make one person happy all the time.

gcthomas 8y ago
Yes, spartan and effective I3 for work, and shiny Gnome for the family machine. There is never only going to be one best solution, as that depends critically on the problem you are trying to solve.
zrobotics 8y ago
For an entertainment machine, I'd suggest installing Steam and auto-launching to big picture. Very easy to navigate from a couch w/ a controller, and you can use it for nearly any media task you want. It does take some time to configure your media directories, but not having to deal w/ a mouse on a media machine is so much easier. Plus, since your base OS can be something like Debian, remoting into the machine for administration is eminintely doable.

chriswarbo 8y ago

I think the problem is that being installed by default on a popular distro is a double-edged sword: on one hand there are more users, which means more bug reports, potentially more contributions and maintainers, etc. but on the other hand there will be more complaints from people who don't actually want to use it. As long as something is an "alternative" rather than common/default, its users will mostly be self-selected because they specifically went out of their way to use it.

stinos 8y ago

Open-source desktops are never perfect for anyone, but everyone expects them to be Isn't the same true for closed-source desktops? I mean, how on earth could any software be perfect for everyone?

JepZ 8y ago

I am pretty happy with my KDE desktop. The strength of KDE/Plasma is it extreme ability to be customized to the users needs. Nevertheless, KDE itself comes with a set of background services too, which some users might find bloated. I think nowadays its just a matter using what fits your needs. The only thing that nobody is perfect at is 'settings' as they mostly focus on desktop specific settings and many users don't know where to find more advanced settings (e.g. /etc).

yAnonymous 8y ago

The problem with Gnome is not that it's too bloated or spartan -although it does use twice as much memory as KDE and four times as much as LXDE- but that many parts of the UX are plain stupid.

raverbashing 8y ago
I share this opinion. It's "trying to be Mac OSX simple" (but failing)

robocat 8y ago

> Open-source desktops are never perfect for anyone, but everyone expects them to be Oppositely, if I haven't paid anything I am happy to put up with quite some grief. Just knowing you could fix it if you wanted to spend the time has value for me too. However using MacOS makes me very sad: paying $1000 for the privilege of bugs and user interface flaws galls me. I have quite low expectations of Windows too, but that is (a) historical expectations and (b) I don't expect much from a now advertising-based OS. [Aside: I just wish Microsoft would charge me a subscription for a professional version that didn't have crapware and adverts].