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Again, please provide any data that says otherwise. At all. Any! So far the data in this conversation has been incredibly one sided, with me providing data, an

Again, please provide any data that says otherwise. At all. Any! So far the data in this conversation has been incredibly one sided, with me providing data, and you providing skepticism. These systems exist in a lot of cars, yet nothing until Tesla suggests any issues anywhere (i'm ignoring things like news reports which are fairly biased) Therefore, the extraordinary claim is not that Tesla is worse, it's that Tesla isn't worse.

cherioo 8y ago
A quick search gives me this http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/08/automatic-emergency-braking-wont-always-stop-crash-americans-think-will/ http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/08/automatic-emergency.... In particular "At 45 mph, the crash-avoidance systems slowed the test vehicle by 74 percent, on average, and prevented collisions 40 percent of the time.", i.e. it fails 60 percent of the time. Do you really believe other cars' automatic emergency braking works 100 percent of the time with perfect reliability? They don't show up because it's non-news.
- DannyBee 8y ago
  No, i don't believe that, i just would like this person to provide literally any data at all for their pet theories instead of just crapping on everyone else's imperfect data (which is pretty typically the way of the world) So yeah, what i want is a citation or anything other than smug hand waving and dismissivenessm, to actually make it a useful discussion.
mikeash 8y ago
The "data" you've provided so far consists of: 1) A link to IIHS crash avoidance test results. The Model S got a perfect score in those results, so those results don't at all support any claim that the Model S is worse. (I can certainly accept that the test is not definitive and the Model S could be worse than others while still getting a perfect score. My point is merely that this is not relevant data.) 2. A mention of 18 crashes with Autopilot enabled. Without a baseline to compare it to or at least some sort of rate based on the total fleet activity, this is more of an anecdote than data. Note that the average American driver crashes about once every 18 years (https://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybuilder/2011/07/27/how-many-times-will-you-crash-your-car/#2f35cda24e62 https://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybuilder/2011/07/27/how-man...) and there are around 175,000 Teslas on American roads right now (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115454_tesla-expects-200000th-u-s-sale-this-year-electric-car-tax-credits-to-start-phaseout https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115454_tesla-expects-2...). If Tesla drivers crash at the average rate, we'd expect to see about 175000/18/365 = 26.6 Tesla crashes every day, and that's just in the US. 18 Autopilot crashes ever is... not very high. 3. A completely unsourced and frankly implausible claim that the crash rate for other manufacturers' driver assistance features is zero.
- DannyBee 8y ago
  So, then still zero data from you to back up any of your theories up, at all, but still more skepticism and random crapping on literally the only data provided so far. Okay, i'm out.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    An average of 26.6 Tesla crashes per day isn’t data? It’s more relevant or more reliable than anything you’ve given.

cherioo 8y ago

A quick search gives me this http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/08/automatic-emergency-braking-wont-always-stop-crash-americans-think-will/ http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/08/automatic-emergency.... In particular "At 45 mph, the crash-avoidance systems slowed the test vehicle by 74 percent, on average, and prevented collisions 40 percent of the time.", i.e. it fails 60 percent of the time. Do you really believe other cars' automatic emergency braking works 100 percent of the time with perfect reliability? They don't show up because it's non-news.

DannyBee 8y ago
No, i don't believe that, i just would like this person to provide literally any data at all for their pet theories instead of just crapping on everyone else's imperfect data (which is pretty typically the way of the world) So yeah, what i want is a citation or anything other than smug hand waving and dismissivenessm, to actually make it a useful discussion.

mikeash 8y ago

The "data" you've provided so far consists of: 1) A link to IIHS crash avoidance test results. The Model S got a perfect score in those results, so those results don't at all support any claim that the Model S is worse. (I can certainly accept that the test is not definitive and the Model S could be worse than others while still getting a perfect score. My point is merely that this is not relevant data.) 2. A mention of 18 crashes with Autopilot enabled. Without a baseline to compare it to or at least some sort of rate based on the total fleet activity, this is more of an anecdote than data. Note that the average American driver crashes about once every 18 years (https://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybuilder/2011/07/27/how-many-times-will-you-crash-your-car/#2f35cda24e62 https://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybuilder/2011/07/27/how-man...) and there are around 175,000 Teslas on American roads right now (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115454_tesla-expects-200000th-u-s-sale-this-year-electric-car-tax-credits-to-start-phaseout https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115454_tesla-expects-2...). If Tesla drivers crash at the average rate, we'd expect to see about 175000/18/365 = 26.6 Tesla crashes every day, and that's just in the US. 18 Autopilot crashes ever is... not very high. 3. A completely unsourced and frankly implausible claim that the crash rate for other manufacturers' driver assistance features is zero.

DannyBee 8y ago
So, then still zero data from you to back up any of your theories up, at all, but still more skepticism and random crapping on literally the only data provided so far. Okay, i'm out.
- mikeash 8y ago
  An average of 26.6 Tesla crashes per day isn’t data? It’s more relevant or more reliable than anything you’ve given.